TERFs crash London Pride

tyr_13 said:
Very good points. There are many parallels here to what happens even inside the LBGTQ community where tolerance is supposed to be a lesson hard learned by everyone in it.

For example, if a lesbian doesn't want to date a bi woman because she can't stand the thought of her gf having been with a cishet man, all she has to do is not go for those bi women. She doesn't have to like it or be enthusiastic about heterosexual intercourse. But if she goes around saying bi girls are gross and that only 'gold star' lesbians are really lesbians deserving of their own spaces (bi girls are invading lesbian spaces), well, she's going to have a harder time of it. She'll probably be thought of as a 'radfem' or a TERF, and fewer people will invite her to the True Agenda SettingTM parties.

However, there will be some people who, even if all she does is say she's not into bi girls, will still call her a TERF, even though that's not an idea that is accurately grouped in TERF ideas. That's wrong to do too.
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Why is it necessary to apply the slur 'TERF' to anyone? How is it different to calling gay people 'poofs'?

What are 'TERF ideas'?
 
JihadJane said:
Why is it necessary to apply the slur 'TERF' to anyone? How is it different to calling gay people 'poofs'?

What are 'TERF ideas'?
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It's a perfectly fine description, but like all such things does get misused. See my earlier post about it only becoming an insulting label through the context of the ideas it labels being so vile to so many people. (The primary misuse isn't actually it being applied to people who are not trans-excluding, but to people who are not advocating radical feminism.)


This is an over-simplification of sorts, but radical feminism primarily deals with the idea that the oppression of women by men is the primordial and overriding oppression from which all other injustices spring, and therefore the only way for gender equality is the radical reconstruction of all society and institutions to eliminate all elements of 'the patriarchy'. (This leads to many of the most cringeworthy news from feminism such as 'the scientific method is invalid because it's the patriarchy'.) It's not all as extreme as it might sound often, but radfems have a rather unfortunate tendency to overlap with the outright misandrists.

Because cis-privledge isn't as easily compatible as a form of oppression springing from 'the patriarchy', trans issues already rub them the wrong way. They see trans men as traitors, and trans women as men invading women's spaces (agents of the patriarchy). Some see the abolition of all gender expressions as needed to oppose the patriarchy, so the very idea of gender identity is taboo.

In short, TERFs want to exclude trans people from privileges and protections related to women (it's almost always women), preventing trans people from participating in society as equals. A TERF idea is to keep trans people out of gendered spaces. A TERF idea is to keep any societal or institutional recognition of trans people as the gender they feel and live as. A TERF idea is that because men can't be feminists, trans women can't be feminists.

TERF is only a slur because those ideas are bad enough to be insulting. But people still hold them. This is true even if they don't want to be called TERF. Call it PuppyLoveProtectTheChildren (PLPTC) and it would still become insulting because the ideas are bad ideas.
 
tyr_13 said:
It's a perfectly fine description, but like all such things does get misused. See my earlier post about it only becoming an insulting label through the context of the ideas it labels being so vile to so many people. (The primary misuse isn't actually it being applied to people who are not trans-excluding, but to people who are not advocating radical feminism.)


This is an over-simplification of sorts, but radical feminism primarily deals with the idea that the oppression of women by men is the primordial and overriding oppression from which all other injustices spring, and therefore the only way for gender equality is the radical reconstruction of all society and institutions to eliminate all elements of 'the patriarchy'. (This leads to many of the most cringeworthy news from feminism such as 'the scientific method is invalid because it's the patriarchy'.) It's not all as extreme as it might sound often, but radfems have a rather unfortunate tendency to overlap with the outright misandrists.

Because cis-privledge isn't as easily compatible as a form of oppression springing from 'the patriarchy', trans issues already rub them the wrong way. They see trans men as traitors, and trans women as men invading women's spaces (agents of the patriarchy). Some see the abolition of all gender expressions as needed to oppose the patriarchy, so the very idea of gender identity is taboo.

In short, TERFs want to exclude trans people from privileges and protections related to women (it's almost always women), preventing trans people from participating in society as equals. A TERF idea is to keep trans people out of gendered spaces. A TERF idea is to keep any societal or institutional recognition of trans people as the gender they feel and live as. A TERF idea is that because men can't be feminists, trans women can't be feminists.

TERF is only a slur because those ideas are bad enough to be insulting. But people still hold them. This is true even if they don't want to be called TERF. Call it PuppyLoveProtectTheChildren (PLPTC) and it would still become insulting because the ideas are bad ideas.
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Rolfe said:
Thanks for that stream of insults and misrepresentations. Have a nice day.
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I'm shocked. I didn't realize you self-identified as a TERF.

Or, wait. You aren't a TERF but merely defend them. My mistake. I'm not a fascist either, but I hear that some are really good people.
 
Rolfe said:
Thanks for that stream of insults and misrepresentations. Have a nice day.
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"When you toss a stone into a pack of dogs, the one that yaps is the one you hit."

Your assertions are not an argument, nor are they true.

But here is the thing; you're not actually a TERF. You use some of the same arguments and same conclusions, but you come at them in a different way. Your arguments are almost all based on maintaining privileges that cis women have gained by law and social custom (when they aren't based on incorrect hypothesis of the nature of trans people in general). You're not a radical feminist; you're a liberal feminist. Going by the naming scheme your views would be TELF. JihadJane also isn't a TERF, although there is more overlap there. As she frames it coming from a class perspective, it appears she's a socialist feminist, and being trans-excluding would be a TESF. That one is messier because many of the socialist feminists crossed over from radical feminism. Yes, most would just go with TERF because it's the more well known and sounds fun to say, but as I noted in the post you object to that's not strictly speaking correct.

But what do I know about feminism, being cishet male. :rolleyes:
 
tyr_13 said:
It's a perfectly fine description, but like all such things does get misused. See my earlier post about it only becoming an insulting label through the context of the ideas it labels being so vile to so many people. (The primary misuse isn't actually it being applied to people who are not trans-excluding, but to people who are not advocating radical feminism.)
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Here follows strawmen (though hard to see anything "vile" about them):

tyr_13 said:
This is an over-simplification of sorts, but radical feminism primarily deals with the idea that the oppression of women by men is the primordial and overriding oppression from which all other injustices spring, and therefore the only way for gender equality...
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Feminism doesn't want gender equality. It wants to abolish gender altogether. It sees encouraging people to act according to male and female gender stereotypes as harmful on many levels. This is where trans-activist gender identity ideology reveals itself as extremely regressive and conservative. It believes that swapping one gender stereotype for another is a form of political liberation. In fact it is preserving the gender-based status quo.

tyr_13 said:
...is the radical reconstruction of all society and institutions to eliminate all elements of 'the patriarchy'. (This leads to many of the most cringeworthy news from feminism such as 'the scientific method is invalid because it's the patriarchy'.) It's not all as extreme as it might sound often, but radfems have a rather unfortunate tendency to overlap with the outright misandrists.

Because cis-privledge isn't as easily compatible as a form of oppression springing from 'the patriarchy', trans issues already rub them the wrong way. They see trans men as traitors, and trans women as men invading women's spaces (agents of the patriarchy). Some see the abolition of all gender expressions as needed to oppose the patriarchy, so the very idea of gender identity is taboo./
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No, "gender identity" isn't seen as taboo here. It's seen as politically regressive and based on and reinforcing limiting gender stereotypes.

'Boys will be boys and girls will be girls and, if you've got a problem with that, it means you're in the wrong body.'

tyr_13 said:
In short, TERFs want to exclude trans people from privileges and protections related to women (it's almost always women), preventing trans people from participating in society as equals. A TERF idea is to keep trans people out of gendered spaces.
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What's wrong with/vile about that? I'm assuming you mean sex-segregated spaces here. Why would a man want to gain entry into women's refuges from male violence?



tyr_13 said:
A TERF idea is to keep any societal or institutional recognition of trans people as the gender they feel and live as.
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Is this typed correctly? Feminism wants to retain hard-won women's rights and to protect women and children from the harmful social, psychological and medical consequences of transgender activist ideology.

Feminism has a long history of supporting human rights for everybody, including transsexual men, with whom it has formed a natural alliance, both groups being gender non-conformist.


tyr_13 said:
A TERF idea is that because men can't be feminists, trans women can't be feminists.
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Are you a feminist?

tyr_13 said:
TERF is only a slur because those ideas are bad enough to be insulting. But people still hold them. This is true even if they don't want to be called TERF. Call it PuppyLoveProtectTheChildren (PLPTC) and it would still become insulting because the ideas are bad ideas.
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LOL. Funny to see a 'cis'-ideologue from the Transwomen-are-Women (TAW), My-Penis-is Female (MPIF) movement complaining about people saying 'the scientific method is invalid'! Angry man, you are very confused.
 
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cullennz said:
Now "queer" is a slur?

Has anyone told the outfits that call themselves LGBTQ?
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I think you may have missed a few nuances; I'm guessing you're somewhat younger than me. Queer certainly used to be an insult (or 'slur', as the current term seems to be), until it was reclaimed by those it was used against.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Like bi women, they knowledge that they find women attractive is gross and off putting even if they are monogamous with you. Or they had slept with a black.
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Who are you to tell people who they are allowed to be attracted to?

Do I get to call you a bigot for not wanting to bang me? I do a damn fine drag and it would put me out to know it wasn't passing enough.
 
JihadJane said:
...Feminism doesn't want gender equality. It wants to abolish gender altogether. It sees encouraging people to act according to male and female gender stereotypes as harmful on many levels.


Feminism has a long history of supporting human rights for everybody, including transsexual men, with whom it has formed a natural alliance, both groups being gender non-conformist...
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As long as the trans-men stay out of female bathrooms. Got it!
 
Saying "feminism means that ..." or "feminism wants ..." is utterly like saying "jazz music sounds like ..." . Count Basie? Spyro Gyra? Kenny G? Charlie Byrd?

Define the specifics what you're actually talking about (to a degree - I still don't get what is "trance" vs "house" music), or you're just spouting piffle. Remember : this is the decade in which we've seen Christina Hoff Sommers deplatformed for being anti-woman, so we're well into the Koyaanisqatsi realm of language.
 
Elagabalus said:
As long as the trans-men stay out of female bathrooms. Got it!
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I haven't seen anyone complaining about transmen (women) using women's toilets.

Since when was men going into women's toilets, or vice versa, a human right, though?

The human right to sanitation does not include the right of men to use women's toilets or the right of women to use men's toilets:

The human right to sanitation entitles everyone, without discrimination, to: “have physical and affordable access to sanitation, in all spheres of life, that is safe, hygienic, secure, and social and culturally acceptable, and that provides privacy and dignity” (UN, 2015).

The human right to sanitation is not fulfilled by the presence of a toilet of any kind, in any condition. It delineates a five-pillar criteria that sanitation services must meet in order to satisfy the right to sanitation. They must be:

Available (near to households, schools, workplaces, health centres etc.)
Accessible (to all, without discrimination)
Affordable (should not exceed 5% of households’ incomes)
Safe (free from heath hazards, and in locations that are safe for all users, e.g. where women feel safe from harassment and violence)
Acceptable (culturally and socially, and must protect peoples’ privacy and dignity)
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http://sanitationfirst.org/blog/the-right-to-a-toilet/
 
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Joe Random said:
Saying "feminism means that ..." or "feminism wants ..." is utterly like saying "jazz music sounds like ..." . Count Basie? Spyro Gyra? Kenny G? Charlie Byrd?

Define the specifics what you're actually talking about (to a degree - I still don't get what is "trance" vs "house" music), or you're just spouting piffle. Remember : this is the decade in which we've seen Christina Hoff Sommers deplatformed for being anti-woman, so we're well into the Koyaanisqatsi realm of language.
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Yes, de-platforming anybody is naive, reactionary and, unfortunately, endemic in polarised student politics. However, you will find many more examples of it being using by students to silence gender-critical speakers than the against critics of the women's movement.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DipUpDwWsAIRa7W.jpg:large

Get back to us when you've sussed out the difference between trance and house, then you'll maybe be ready to comprehend the basics of feminism. :)


Challenging socially constructed and enforced gender roles has always been central to feminism. Feminism that embraces anti-women, transgender political activist ideology isn't feminism.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Trance-and-House-music
 
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