TERFs crash London Pride

Whether or not a hypothetical person should be attracted to some hypothetical "Perfect post-surgical person of their preferred gender" is not the issue though.

Why? they are stating that they are grossed out by not the body but the idea of them. They are saying I won't date trans women, not I will only date women with a vagina.

It is clear that it isn't about what they are attracted to in the body but what grosses them out at a fundamental level. Like refusing to date black women even if they pass as white. Knowing that the black blood is in there is enough. Nothing racist about that clearly.
 
And that's my point.

A simple "Are we creating arguments and language and conceptualizations in ways that have the potential cause to us to have to justify our sexual attractions to an unreasonable degree" is not an insane, paranoid, strawman, slippery slope, or transphobic question to put on the table.

I want as much as anyone to help non-traditionally gendered people escape from societal pressure, harassment and discrimination.

I also don't want to have clarify "Yes with a vagina" when I say I'm attracted to women.
 
You expect sex to make sense and be consistent?

Yes. I don't see it as any fundamentally different than the biphobia about people refusing to date bisexuals because they are bisexual. In both cases it isn't about the person or the relationship you could have with them but about being grossed about by something outside of their control and does not impact you.
 
A hypothetical "Transwomen are real women, just not one of the subsets of womankind I'm attracted to" is perfectly sensible and consistent.

also, what the Monkey said...

Like bi women, they knowledge that they find women attractive is gross and off putting even if they are monogamous with you. Or they had slept with a black.
 
Wow ponderingturtle you stayed out of your fantasy world populated entirely with strawman arguments for almost a full three posts. That's a new record for you.
 
And that's my point.

A simple "Are we creating arguments and language and conceptualizations in ways that have the potential cause to us to have to justify our sexual attractions to an unreasonable degree" is not an insane, paranoid, strawman, slippery slope, or transphobic question to put on the table.

I also don't want to have clarify "Yes with a vagina" when I say I'm attracted to women.

Why is being specific bad? And of course you are not happy with that either, because you are ruling out trans women even after bottom surgery.

What makes having been identified as male at birth something that is not a big deal to be grossed out by, and having previously had sex with a black man not acceptable to be grossed out by?
 
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Would you consider it transphobic (or otherwise problematic) to profress not being attracted to a post-transition transgender of your preferred sex?
 
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And with respect it's naive to think that distinction wasn't thrown to the wolves a long, long time ago.


When that distinction is lost or discarded, someone is doing social interaction wrong, and the situation is not sustainable. That does happen sometimes.

Monarchies and dictatorships can persist for generations when the people grumble but are not driven to actual revolt. Instead of putting up with subdued grumbling, a monarch or dictator can choose to use the apparatus of state to compel adoring crowds to show up and cheer. Rarely, that scenario leads to actual approval (for instance when prosperity and/or military victory are achieved). More usually, it ultimately resolves itself in bloodshed.

On a much smaller scale, the Atheism Plus fiasco showed the results of rejecting middle-ground tolerance. Any reaction to them that fell short of delighted approval was read as hatred and returned with hatred. Atheism Plus is a cautionary tale of how that distinction between tolerance and delighted approval can be lost (on purpose, when it's someone's agenda to impress others with how hated those others are), and the eventual result (self-immolation by circular firing squad).

In the real world, what your neighbors do or are that you don't fully approve of but don't express any objection to is what makes community possible. This is sometimes referred to as freedom.

Eliminating that distinction, demanding delighted approval when tolerance should be a sufficient aim, is a political mistake that the American left has been making and continues to make more and more, and which the Right (following the old dictum of never interrupting your enemy when he's making a mistake) has been thrilled to play along with. For instance, evidence shows that most Americans are willing to tolerate abortion, meaning they want it to be legal. But if it came down to a referendum between those who are not willing to tolerate abortion at all, and those who delightedly approve of it, guess who would win. When enough moderates get shouted down from both sides, that's the net effect.

(So why does the American left think shouting down those whose tolerance isn't sufficiently delightfully-approving for their taste is a great idea? Beats me; I think it's asinine. I mourn the social progress being pissed away because of it, but I can't do anything about it.)

I actually do seriously think that within a moderate time frame not being sexually attracted to someone who identifies as your preferred gender will be... problematic. It will be seen as, roughly, equivalent to not being attracted to a certain race. Maybe not "transphobic" on some literal sense but in much the same way I'd wager most people now would see a statement like "I'm not attracted to black women" as, if not racist, at least... racially problematic.

We can't act like there isn't an expectation that acceptance will follow tolerance.


That expectation (where "acceptance," I assume, is meant to be beyond tolerance, closer to what I call "delighted approval") might exist, but it's suicidally unsustainable. Plant your flag on tolerance and you can defend it indefinitely. Insist on delighted approval, and you're pushing the pendulum to where it will swing back on you sooner or later.

Do you think "I'm not attracted to polyamorous groupings" will have the same reaction for the same reasons?

I identify as demi. I'm not attracted to anyone who is not my (white, female, of a certain age) wife. That includes black women, gay men and women, trans men and women, and unicorn-identifying otherkin. Does that make me a problematic everything-ist?
 
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Would you consider it transphobic (or otherwise problematic) to profress not being attracted to a post-transition transgender of your preferred sex?

As a blanket statement it certainly seems to stem from transphobia because it isn't about the person or their current situation. Just like flat out refusing to date bisexuals and so on.

Of course people don't want to look at why they are uncomfortable with group X and maybe need to do work on themselves to get more comfortable with them. Like someone who is put off by seeing men kiss in public. As long as they accept that this is something they are projecting and something they should work on I don't see it as a problem.

Everyone should try to work on being better versions of themselves and not try to pretend that they are perfect. But trying to be better people and work through their biases is too hard so it is better to just pretend that you don't have any and insult anyone who points them out.
 
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I identify as demi. I'm not attracted to anyone who is not my (white, female, of a certain age) wife. That includes black women, gay men and women, trans men and women, and unicorn-identifying otherkin. Does that make me a problematic everything-ist?

Because we're getting into how the transgender movement has largely argued that "identity" is keenly different from "a characteristic."

It's not (exactly there's a lot of complex overlap and context built on context here to be sure...) a matter of not being attracted to X.

It's a matter of not being attracted to someone who identifies as X.

And that's not the small matter it might seem on the surface.

The Unicorn other-kin might not expect you to be attracted to him, but I'd wager if you claim an attraction to unicorns you wouldn't be able to argue to him that you are not attracted to him because he's not a 'real' unicorn.

Again we can hide behind "Just be clear" and everybody has to express their sexual preferences in page long checklist but even if that level of detail and precision where practical and possible there's too much overlap in terms and identities.
 
On a much smaller scale, the Atheism Plus fiasco showed the results of rejecting middle-ground tolerance. Any reaction to them that fell short of delighted approval was read as hatred and returned with hatred. Atheism Plus is a cautionary tale of how that distinction between tolerance and delighted approval can be lost (on purpose, when it's someone's agenda to impress others with how hated those others are), and the eventual result (self-immolation by circular firing squad).

And of course we also see all those totally normal not racist people calling the cops on blacks living their lives. Nothing wrong with that either. They are tolerating blacks fine after all just not endorsing them. Not something to raise a fuss over.
 
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Would you consider it transphobic (or otherwise problematic) to profress not being attracted to a post-transition transgender of your preferred sex?


If you would not hire them, work with them on a project, vote for them, give them your blessing to marry your adult offspring who's fallen in love with them, or bake them a cake, because of their trans history and identity, I'd consider it transphobic.

If you're not attracted to them, the reason why is nobody's damn business but your own.

"No means no, as long as you can give an acceptable reason for your refusal, acceptable by virtue of not threatening anyone's self-image or self-esteem"? No, that's not how it goes.
 
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"No means no, as long as you can give an acceptable reason for your refusal, acceptably by virtue of not threatening anyone's self-image or self-esteem"? No, that's not how it goes.

And all I'm saying is the rocks of the foundation of that right there being the standard are being laid down.

And this isn't crazy. Yeah it's still in the margins but you don't have to go far to find someone who would argue that... not being attracted to plus sized women is "Fat shaming" or that not being attracted to another race is racist or some other variation on that.
 
And of course we also see all those totally normal not racist people calling the cops on blacks living their lives. Nothing wrong with that either. They are tolerating blacks fine after all just not endorsing them. Not something to raise a fuss over.


I characterized tolerance as, among other things, "not expressing any objection to." Calling the cops is expressing an objection, and in a particularly forceful and potentially violent way at that. Which makes it obviously and explicitly intolerance.

I don't find it plausible that you overlooked that point by accident.

Your tactic of equating tolerance that isn't support sufficiently enthusiastic for your liking, with overt intolerance, is exactly the problem I'm pointing out. You attempt to shame me for intolerance for even suggesting that a middle ground exists.

The right wing thanks you for this. They're eating your (and my) lunch off it.
 
<...>
On a much smaller scale, the Atheism Plus fiasco showed the results of rejecting middle-ground tolerance. Any reaction to them that fell short of delighted approval was read as hatred and returned with hatred. Atheism Plus is a cautionary tale of how that distinction between tolerance and delighted approval can be lost (on purpose, when it's someone's agenda to impress others with how hated those others are), and the eventual result (self-immolation by circular firing squad).

In the real world, what your neighbors do or are that you don't fully approve of but don't express any objection to is what makes community possible. This is sometimes referred to as freedom.

Eliminating that distinction, demanding delighted approval when tolerance should be a sufficient aim, is a political mistake that the American left has been making and continues to make more and more, and which the Right (following the old dictum of never interrupting your enemy when he's making a mistake) has been thrilled to play along with. For instance, evidence shows that most Americans are willing to tolerate abortion, meaning they want it to be legal. But if it came down to a referendum between those who are not willing to tolerate abortion at all, and those who delightedly approve of it, guess who would win. When enough moderates get shouted down from both sides, that's the net effect.

(So why does the American left think shouting down those whose tolerance isn't sufficiently delightfully-approving for their taste is a great idea? Beats me; I think it's asinine. I mourn the social progress being pissed away because of it, but I can't do anything about it.)<...>



Just wanted to say I thought the above was very well put, and lays out in clear words something I've been trying (and failing) to articulate to some people in meat space.
 
I characterized tolerance as, among other things, "not expressing any objection to." Calling the cops is expressing an objection, and in a particularly forceful and potentially violent way at that. Which makes it obviously and explicitly intolerance.

But they would have called the police on anyone who made them feel threatened in that way. These people are not consciously thinking "Hey I want to harass this black person" but "hey this person who makes me feel uncomfortable is doing this thing" it would require introspection to see the role that race is playing in their decisions. And that kind of introspection and self analysis is exactly what so many are trying to avoid here.
 
Would you consider it transphobic (or otherwise problematic) to profress not being attracted to a post-transition transgender of your preferred sex?

I don't recall ever having been in the position of having to explain why I didn't find someone attractive.

I can fairly easily imagine finding a transgender person attractive; dealing with the potential reactions of friends and family to having an open relationship with such a person would be a much bigger obstacle for me.
 
Actually

Do you mind pointing out where I have been hostile

Thanks

Yes I do mind, and this...

I'm beginning to think Trump is the new Godwin.

... is why.

No matter how long a list I came up with, you'd do as you did here and pick out one thing to be flippantly dismissive of without making any indication of absorbing the substantiate points I made. You did it in your flat denials that the term 'cis' could possibly be useful and you did it here.

The funny thing is that I was about to use 'Nazi' as my example of a descriptive label that became insulting because most everyone agreed that the ideas that label encompasses are vile, but thought you'd just dismiss it as a Godwin. So I changed it to several examples, including opposite political ones, and you still dismiss it as a pseudoGodwin.

That's why I'm not going to take the time.

EDIT: Also because it's not going to be easy to convince you what I mean by 'hostile to my points' if you don't already agree with that observation.
 
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When that distinction is lost or discarded, someone is doing social interaction wrong, and the situation is not sustainable. That does happen sometimes.

Monarchies and dictatorships can persist for generations when the people grumble but are not driven to actual revolt. Instead of putting up with subdued grumbling, a monarch or dictator can choose to use the apparatus of state to compel adoring crowds to show up and cheer. Rarely, that scenario leads to actual approval (for instance when prosperity and/or military victory are achieved). More usually, it ultimately resolves itself in bloodshed.

On a much smaller scale, the Atheism Plus fiasco showed the results of rejecting middle-ground tolerance. Any reaction to them that fell short of delighted approval was read as hatred and returned with hatred. Atheism Plus is a cautionary tale of how that distinction between tolerance and delighted approval can be lost (on purpose, when it's someone's agenda to impress others with how hated those others are), and the eventual result (self-immolation by circular firing squad).

In the real world, what your neighbors do or are that you don't fully approve of but don't express any objection to is what makes community possible. This is sometimes referred to as freedom.

Eliminating that distinction, demanding delighted approval when tolerance should be a sufficient aim, is a political mistake that the American left has been making and continues to make more and more, and which the Right (following the old dictum of never interrupting your enemy when he's making a mistake) has been thrilled to play along with. For instance, evidence shows that most Americans are willing to tolerate abortion, meaning they want it to be legal. But if it came down to a referendum between those who are not willing to tolerate abortion at all, and those who delightedly approve of it, guess who would win. When enough moderates get shouted down from both sides, that's the net effect.

(So why does the American left think shouting down those whose tolerance isn't sufficiently delightfully-approving for their taste is a great idea? Beats me; I think it's asinine. I mourn the social progress being pissed away because of it, but I can't do anything about it.)




That expectation (where "acceptance," I assume, is meant to be beyond tolerance, closer to what I call "delighted approval") might exist, but it's suicidally unsustainable. Plant your flag on tolerance and you can defend it indefinitely. Insist on delighted approval, and you're pushing the pendulum to where it will swing back on you sooner or later.

Do you think "I'm not attracted to polyamorous groupings" will have the same reaction for the same reasons?

I identify as demi. I'm not attracted to anyone who is not my (white, female, of a certain age) wife. That includes black women, gay men and women, trans men and women, and unicorn-identifying otherkin. Does that make me a problematic everything-ist?


Very good points. There are many parallels here to what happens even inside the LBGTQ community where tolerance is supposed to be a lesson hard learned by everyone in it.

For example, if a lesbian doesn't want to date a bi woman because she can't stand the thought of her gf having been with a cishet man, all she has to do is not go for those bi women. She doesn't have to like it or be enthusiastic about heterosexual intercourse. But if she goes around saying bi girls are gross and that only 'gold star' lesbians are really lesbians deserving of their own spaces (bi girls are invading lesbian spaces), well, she's going to have a harder time of it. She'll probably be thought of as a 'radfem' or a TERF, and fewer people will invite her to the True Agenda SettingTM parties.

However, there will be some people who, even if all she does is say she's not into bi girls, will still call her a TERF, even though that's not an idea that is accurately grouped in TERF ideas. That's wrong to do too.
 

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