TERFs crash London Pride

[3point14]

Does it matter what proportion of trans-identifying men are violent and aggressive?

Yes, it absolutely does.

There are enough of them to create a substantial problem

This doesn't tally with what you've said previously. You said you didn't and couldn't know numbers. Now you believe you do have some idea of the numbers. Which is it?

and it doesn't magically go away just because you're happy that it's not a high percentage.

Everything is a percentage. I'm not prepared to wreck the lives of people who have it hard enough already because ou believe there's a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance that a tans man is going to harrass a woman in a lavatory somewhere.

Now, if you can show that it's a 25% chance or some such, then I'll listen, but you can't. You can't show any numbers at all and I believe you need to if your argument is to have any credibility at all.

In what way are inoffensive trans-identifying people being restricted from their normal daily activities by a group of lesbians rocking up to Pride with banners that say things like "Lesbian = female homosexual" and "The penis is not a female organ"?

Because, if there's no risk - and you really haven't shown there is - then my default position is 'do what you like'. A man who identifies in all ways as a woman would probably be very uncomfortable being forced to use a men's lavatory. They'd be more comfortable in a ladies. In the absence of any negative consequences - which you haven't shown - let them use the ladies - their life is hard enough as it is. They probably just want to take a ****.

 

[sadhatter]

Please don't let Rolfe turn this thread into another bash-the-tranny thread; this thread is about the trans people who were being attacked during a parade in London.

To one side.

To the other is about members of the LGBT community being silenced in favor of members that are more media relevant.

Stories about gay people are so last last year, trans is where it is at for gaining sjw points.

 

[pharphis]

Well, I'm not a man so the invasion of men's spaces is not my primary concern. However I see no reports of aggressive, bullying trans-identifying women intimidating men or threatening or perpetrating violence against men for the crime of not including them in men's groups or activities.

I don't see women on testosterone marching with blue baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire with labels such as "TERM-basher" on them. I don't see any sign of an equivalent problem on the other side of the sex divide. Perhaps I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, show me the evidence this is a thing and I'll reconsider.

I wonder why that is. I'd guess that men simply don't care as much as women do but it's not obvious to me why that is. Maybe they're less afraid, or more accepting, or have different criteria for what makes someone able to join said space, or aren't as entitled to their own "(male) spaces".

 

[sadhatter]

Show me a trans-identifying woman who's being violent and aggressive towards men and I'll tell you.

ETA: I probably phrased that badly. There does not appear to be a cohort of trans-identifying women who are being violent and aggressive towards men, and calling gay men transphobic if they say they don't want to have sex with them. So this is a problem pretty much confined to the male of the species.

No it is not, the idiocy spans sex.

I've been labeled a trans phobe and was attempted to be removed physically from a location due to turning down a trans man. Not only that but doing so, not in general but simply for that night (I'm bi, but I was looking for a living penis that night).

It's just the certain type of person who feels entitled to sex. In another world that same guy would have been a neck beard whining about girls all being stuck up.

 

[JihadJane]

Are there any actual numbers or anlysis on that page? I can't see anything that would constitute anything more than anecdote.

It's just a whole page of argument by twitter. You can pretty much show anything by cherry picking twitter bolocks.

OK, it should be easy, then, for you to find lots of examples of "TERFs" threatening to kill transgender activists.



Here are some anti-TERFs espousing the same ideology, putting their words into action at Speakers Corner, Hyde Park, London, [2.49]:

 

[sadhatter]

I wonder why that is. I'd guess that men simply don't care as much as women do but it's not obvious to me why that is. Maybe they're less afraid, or more accepting, or have different criteria for what makes someone able to join said space, or aren't as entitled to their own "(male) spaces".

Males of any stripe don't have safe spaces,we have places where other males are that may be possibly very male focused but legally cannot be a safe space for males only.

Kinda hard to attack what isn't there, he'll gay bars are full of straight women now. (Not that I mind that, one stop shopping when I'm single, but the gay gents seem annoyed)

 

[Rolfe]

Yes, it absolutely does.

This doesn't tally with what you've said previously. You said you didn't and couldn't know numbers. Now you believe you do have some idea of the numbers. Which is it?

Everything is a percentage. I'm not prepared to wreck the lives of people who have it hard enough already because ou believe there's a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance that a tans man is going to harrass a woman in a lavatory somewhere.

Now, if you can show that it's a 25% chance or some such, then I'll listen, but you can't. You can't show any numbers at all and I believe you need to if your argument is to have any credibility at all.

Because, if there's no risk - and you really haven't shown there is - then my default position is 'do what you like'. A man who identifies in all ways as a woman would probably be very uncomfortable being forced to use a men's lavatory. They'd be more comfortable in a ladies. In the absence of any negative consequences - which you haven't shown - let them use the ladies - their life is hard enough as it is. They probably just want to take a ****.

Oh, we're back to "But I just want to pee!" again. Let's not go round that again, because that wasn't what the Pride lesbians were highlighting.

It's not a question of percentages, it's a question of absolute numbers, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the absolute numbers and high profile of the aggressive trans rights bullies are enough to constitute a serious problem. They're everywhere. Contacting venues to have women's meetings cancelled. Shouting and banging outside to drown out the speakers when they fail in that. Joining lesbian groups and insisting that their penises are giant clitorises or lady dicks and they should be accepted by lesbians as potential sex partners. Competing in athletic events against girls and women and generally beating them. Insisting on being allocated a sleeping space in a female dormitory even though they are male-bodied. Demanding to be sent to a woman's prison even though they are male-bodied. Being named "woman of the year" in various contexts, denying an actual woman the award. Getting on to women-only short-lists and being counted as women for the purposes of gender balance. Even (in one case) suing a woman's rape crisis centre because of not being allowed to do face-to-face rape counselling of abused women. And woe betide any uppity woman who tries to speak out against any of this.

You want women just to shut up and budge over and accept all this, because it's not a problem that affects you. Thanks for the support. Not.

 

[sadhatter]

OK, it should be easy, then, for you to find lots of examples of "TERFs" threatening to kill transgender activists.



Here are some anti-TERFs espousing the same ideology, putting their words into action at Speakers Corner, Hyde Park, London, [2.49]:

What did you find when you googled "Terf threatens trans activists? "

 

[Rolfe]

I wonder why that is. I'd guess that men simply don't care as much as women do but it's not obvious to me why that is. Maybe they're less afraid, or more accepting, or have different criteria for what makes someone able to join said space, or aren't as entitled to their own "(male) spaces".

It's pretty obvious from this side of the sex divide. Men seldom feel threatened by women. The opposite, however...

Actually, though, we have evidence from the Man Friday activists that men do feel very uncomfortable when an obvious woman marches into their designated spaces and plonks herself down declaring that she "identifies as a man". It seems, however, that trans-identifying women don't do this. Funny that.

 

[sadhatter]

Oh, we're back to "But I just want to pee!" again. Let's not go round that again, because that wasn't what the Pride lesbians were highlighting.

It's not a question of percentages, it's a question of absolute numbers, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the absolute numbers and high profile of the aggressive trans rights bullies are enough to constitute a serious problem. They're everywhere. Contacting venues to have women's meetings cancelled. Shouting and banging outside to drown out the speakers when they fail in that. Joining lesbian groups and insisting that their penises are giant clitorises or lady dicks and they should be accepted by lesbians as potential sex partners. Competing in athletic events against girls and women and generally beating them. Insisting on being allocated a sleeping space in a female dormitory even though they are male-bodied. Demanding to be sent to a woman's prison even though they are male-bodied. Being named "woman of the year" in various contexts, denying an actual woman the award. Getting on to women-only short-lists and being counted as women for the purposes of gender balance. Even (in one case) suing a woman's rape crisis centre because of not being allowed to do face-to-face rape counselling of abused women. And woe betide any uppity woman who tries to speak out against any of this.

You want women just to shut up and budge over and accept all this, because it's not a problem that affects you. Thanks for the support. Not.

No need to go over board, it's not because it doesn't affect them, it's because supporting trans folks gets them more applause from the sjw crowd.

It's being selfish not ignorant, give them some credit. They know it's a problem and they picked their side based on what gets them more likes.

 

[Information Analyst]

Of course. But in that case the person remains male or female, accordingly. Supernatural trans-substantiation is not being proposed.

Summerisle called - they want their massive strawman back.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know what else you'd call it, asserting that a man can actually turn into a woman.

 

[JihadJane]

What did you find when you googled "Terf threatens trans activists? "

I haven't googled "Terf threatens trans activists? " so cannot answer your question, sadhatter.

What did you find when you googled "Terf threatens trans activists? "

 

[3point14]

OK, it should be easy, then, for you to find lots of examples of "TERFs" threatening to kill transgender activists.



Here are some anti-TERFs espousing the same ideology, putting their words into action at Speakers Corner, Hyde Park, London, [2.49]:

Got any statistics?

That could be all of them in the whole world all gathered in one place, whiich would make them a vanishingly small percentage. Or that could be a tiny, tiny portion of the whole.

Do you have any statistics? I'm being inundated with argument by anecdote here. You and Rolfe seem to be the primary standard bearers and you're both so sure it's an issue, but you've both only come with 'feelings' anecdotes and stuff you 'know' without showing how you know it.

Nothing I have seen so far constitutes evidence of a problem beyond a teeny, tiny group of loud idiots. There are a subset of loud idiots in any group, it's the nature of people. You've not shown that it's in any way a problem.


Again, as with all idiot subsets, I would recommend dealing with and prosecuting the subset as and when it's called for. The massive, and as far as I can see, unjustified, brush that you and Rolfe are using - from a position of no statistical information at all, is freaking me out when I'm on a skeptics forum.

 

[sadhatter]

It's pretty obvious from this side of the sex divide. Men seldom feel threatened by women. The opposite, however...

Actually, though, we have evidence from the Man Friday activists that men do feel very uncomfortable when an obvious woman marches into their designated spaces and plonks herself down declaring that she "identifies as a man". It seems, however, that trans-identifying women don't do this. Funny that.

Seems they don't according to?

You have good points, right up until things go outside of your realm of experience. Then you seem to fall back on men=****.

Trust me there are plenty of guys like myself who support you in this. If you can avoid metaphorically spitting in my face I'll most certainly have your back. If there is something gueer guys know it's being pushed aside in favor of the sjw flavor of the week. Now that queer women are feeling it, maybe it's time for us to stop fighting over the spotlight and evaluate or methods of promotion and discourse.

Or we could just keep in fighting and letting the straight people decide who is the cutest new victim they support.

 

[JoeMorgue]

*Sighs. Pulls out a flask and takes a swig*

Anybody else want any?

 

[3point14]

Oh, we're back to "But I just want to pee!" again. Let's not go round that again, because that wasn't what the Pride lesbians were highlighting.

It's not a question of percentages, it's a question of absolute numbers, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the absolute numbers and high profile of the aggressive trans rights bullies are enough to constitute a serious problem.

Then it won't be too hard for you to show those numbers. From where are you gathering your information? Can I see it? Can I see your maths?

They're everywhere. Contacting venues to have women's meetings cancelled. Shouting and banging outside to drown out the speakers when they fail in that. Joining lesbian groups and insisting that their penises are giant clitorises or lady dicks and they should be accepted by lesbians as potential sex partners. Competing in athletic events against girls and women and generally beating them. Insisting on being allocated a sleeping space in a female dormitory even though they are male-bodied. Demanding to be sent to a woman's prison even though they are male-bodied. Being named "woman of the year" in various contexts, denying an actual woman the award. Getting on to women-only short-lists and being counted as women for the purposes of gender balance. Even (in one case) suing a woman's rape crisis centre because of not being allowed to do face-to-face rape counselling of abused women. And woe betide any uppity woman who tries to speak out against any of this.

You want women just to shut up and budge over and accept all this, because it's not a problem that affects you. Thanks for the support. Not.

No, I just want you to show there is actually a significant problem to be solved. That's a mighty list you've written above. At the risk of repeating myself, do you have any evidence that it's a statistically significant risk that requires action. Because all I've seen is what you believe and your anecdotes. That's lousy logic. That's not even logic.

 

[sadhatter]

I haven't googled "Terf threatens trans activists? " so cannot answer your question, sadhatter.

What did you find when you googled "Terf threatens trans activists? "

Seems like if you wanted to actually know the answer you would have done that instead of adding a meaningless step of making someone else do it.

I found plenty, go try,prove me wrong.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't know what else you'd call it, asserting that a man can actually turn into a woman.

Can you define your terms, please? What is a man, and what is a woman?

 

[Rolfe]

Got any statistics?

That could be all of them in the whole world all gathered in one place, whiich would make them a vanishingly small percentage. Or that could be a tiny, tiny portion of the whole.

Do you have any statistics? I'm being inundated with argument by anecdote here. You and Rolfe seem to be the primary standard bearers and you're both so sure it's an issue, but you've both only come with 'feelings' anecdotes and stuff you 'know' without showing how you know it.

Nothing I have seen so far constitutes evidence of a problem beyond a teeny, tiny group of loud idiots. There are a subset of loud idiots in any group, it's the nature of people. You've not shown that it's in any way a problem.

Again, as with all idiot subsets, I would recommend dealing with and prosecuting the subset as and when it's called for. The massive, and as far as I can see, unjustified, brush that you and Rolfe are using - from a position of no statistical information at all, is freaking me out when I'm on a skeptics forum.

I don't disbelieve the lesbians whose accounts I read about all their meetings being over-run by men insisting that they must be treated as women and their penises as big clitorises or lady dicks. I've seen a lot of relevant activity online supporting the case that there's a sizeable problem.

I've stopped being surprised by the number of men who wade into this telling women that as far as they're concerned it's not a significant problem so women, just budge over and make room for any man who wants to be in your space. It was always thus.