Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

[theprestige]

I don't care what they do as long as it pisses off conservatives. Isn't that the standard you people have set?

No. Pissing off progressives is, on occasion, delicious to me. But it is also often counter-productive, and generally not a good goal to pursue. That said, it can be a bonus if it arises as a side effect of other, more important goals.

There are trade-offs in the pursuit of any goal. Something must be sacrificed, so that something else may be achieved. That I am willing to accept some cost when pursuing some goal, does not mean that I am willing to accept any cost. And pissing off progressives is not itself a goal worth sacrificing much for at all.

The standard I have set is that I care what the Russians do. If they do much, I will care much. If they do little, I will care little. I hope you have the same standard, and aren't just wishing unlimited harm on the country in order to piss me off.

 

[theprestige]

6 posts from Zig here after making his confident proclamation that there are alternatives, yet none actually detail what they are.

File under lie.

You do know that Ziggurat actually gave an alternative before saying there was an alternative, right?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The lack of indicments related to the focus of the investigation, combined with indictments for things *not* related to the focus of the investigation, suggests that the investigation is struggling to find relevant connections.

There are indictments related to the focus of the investigation. All the ones of Russian nationals are directly to do with interference in the election. And some of the others are for things like lying to the FBI about meetings with Russians which, to my mind, is connected to Russia.

You also don't seem to be taking into account that if someone is being charged due to a plea bargain, then they are being charged for a lesser crime in exchange for help with the investigation. If George Popadopoulos plead guilty to lying to the FBI about communications he had had with agents of the Russian government, as part of an investigation into connections between the Trump campaign/transition team(s) and Russia, in order to assist in that investigation, then how is that not indicative of connections between the Trump campaign/transition team(s) and Russia?

It certainly doesn't demonstrate the purported connection between Trump and Russia.

I never said it did. It's you who has made the positive claim - that the FBI is finding connections between Trump and Russia to be "a colossal bitch".

You seem to believe that a connection between Trump and Russia has been substantially demonstrated. I was asking you what demonstration you had in mind.

Leaving aside the fact that this is something of a straw man, allow me to point you towards the link I posted a few posts upthread, which details all the publicly available information about the connections between Trump and Russia.

 

[Fudbucker]

I understand that. And my point is that you're wrong. There's a very plausible alternative.



Yeah, I'm not taking that bet. There's a very high probability that Mueller will hit someone with a bull **** process charge, like what his pall Comey did to Martha Stewart, with no actual underlying crime. That won't impress me.

I figured as much.

 

[NoahFence]

You do know that Ziggurat actually gave an alternative before saying there was an alternative, right?

It's nice comical that you think that.

 

[lomiller]

Your belief that the investigation was partisan is a product of your partisanship. The investigation was and is not partisan. The partisanship is all yours.

Not just partisan, he’s gone fully off the deep end with CT crap.

 

[Fudbucker]

Not just partisan, he’s gone fully off the deep end with CT crap.

Logger's banning seems to have had a profound affect on some of our resident conservatives.

 

[lomiller]

I think this is the kind of nonsense Trump and his goons are trying to mount as a defense. The 'ol "it can't be obstruction of justice because there is no crime to investigate."

However, "we can't find a crime happened in regards to Benghazi, so let's try to send someone to jail for mishandling classified emails" is okay.

Lets no forged that mishandling documents suddenly becomes perfectly fine when Trump doesn't just order documents illegally destroyed, but firing people for not complying with the illegal order.

Also, if we assume running s server where someone may have (but didn't) improperly put a classified document were criminal or illegal and the FBI was just out to get Trump why not have someone e-mail some classified documents to a business he owns then arrest him for mishandling classified documents? Of course, even if you buy into the underlying CT theory like Zig does, such a conspiracy would make no sense because it isn't the person running the server committing the crime it's the one sending the e-mail.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Mueller's timing was exquisite.

 

[Ziggurat]

I figured as much.

And I figured you wouldn't be willing to bet someone high up would be indicted for actual collusion with the Russians.

 

[Ziggurat]

And I'm sure you'll be happy to tell the class what that alternative is?

Pay attention.

 

[Ziggurat]

Or he was paid off.

Martha Stewart paid off the judge.

Sure, go with that. That doesn't sound crazy at all.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Because it has never actually been about Russia, it has always been about getting Trump bringing to justice any lawbreaker, especially should that person be in a senior government position.

Or, if you still prefer: poor, put upon Donald Trump.

 

[theprestige]

There are indictments related to the focus of the investigation.

Touche.

All the ones of Russian nationals are directly to do with interference in the election.

True, but those indictments don't demonstrate a connection between Trump and Russia. So they don't really change my calculus at all, on the question of a demonstrated connection between Trump and Russia.

And some of the others are for things like lying to the FBI about meetings with Russians which, to my mind, is connected to Russia.

I thought we both understood that we're using "connection between Trump and Russia" as a shorthand for "evidence that Trump or members of his campaign staff colluded with agents of the Russian government prior to the election, to influence the election in Trump's favor in exchange for some meaningful quid pro quo."

The connection you're referring to here is the entirely mundane and commonplace meeting between representatives of the president-elect and their foreign counterparts. Can we agree that:

• This is not the "connection between Trump and Russia" that we're talking about; that
• This does not demonstrate the "connection between Trump and Russia" that we're talking about; and that
• We don't need to keep bringing it up in the context of the "connection between Trump and Russia" that we're talking about?

You also don't seem to be taking into account that if someone is being charged due to a plea bargain, then they are being charged for a lesser crime in exchange for help with the investigation. If George Popadopoulos plead guilty to lying to the FBI about communications he had had with agents of the Russian government, as part of an investigation into connections between the Trump campaign/transition team(s) and Russia, in order to assist in that investigation, then how is that not indicative of connections between the Trump campaign/transition team(s) and Russia?

It's equally indicative of the investigation being a fishing expedition, where the lead investigator is threatening defendants with prosecution of unrelated crimes in order to coerce them into giving the impression that the investigation is actually getting traction on the crime it's supposed to be investigating.

When Mueller issues indictments demonstrating the "connection between Trump and Russia" that we're talking about, then we'll have the demonstration you're talking about. Meanwhile you're free to suppose whatever you like from the information we have so far. Just don't try to pawn it off on me as an actual demonstration of your claim.

I never said it did. It's you who has made the positive claim - that the FBI is finding connections between Trump and Russia to be "a colossal bitch".

And you replied by asserting that the connection had been demonstrated. I'm willing to admit that my claim was wildly speculative. Are you admitting that there's been no demonstration of the connection yet?

Leaving aside the fact that this is something of a straw man, allow me to point you towards the link I posted a few posts upthread, which details all the publicly available information about the connections between Trump and Russia.

Those details don't seem to include the "connection between Trump and Russia" that we're talking about. Can you quote an excerpt that demonstrates that connection?

 

[Fudbucker]

And I figured you wouldn't be willing to bet someone high up would be indicted for actual collusion with the Russians.

Be specific. What kind of indictments are you expecting WON'T come out of this Mueller probe?

 

[zorro99]

Trump just destroyed 200 plus years of American credibility today. He takes the word of an adversary over our own intl community. What a coward he is.

 

[The Big Dog]

Be specific. What kind of indictments are you expecting WON'T come out of this Mueller probe?

what an odd question.

I expect that there will be no indictments for sleeping in a bakery in violation of Illinois law.

 

[The Big Dog]

Trump just destroyed 200 plus years of American credibility today. He takes the word of an adversary over our own intl community. What a coward he is.

Golly things must have sucked before 1818!

I heart hysterical hyperbole.

 

[Fudbucker]

what an odd question.

I expect that there will be no indictments for sleeping in a bakery in violation of Illinois law.

I'm talking about collusion-based indictments. Zigg won't bet on process crimes, but is apparently open to a bet on collusion crimes.

 

[The Don]

Trump just destroyed 200 plus years of American credibility today. He takes the word of an adversary over our own intl community. What a coward he is.

He's a stable genius relying on his gut (he looked Putin in the eye and knew he wasn't lying) over the assertions of the "deep state" intelligence services who are seeking to remove him from office.