You seem rather confused about what Brexit is - it is the UK leaving the EU, nothing more nothing less.
We were never asked did we want zero tariffs, zero state subsidies and so on. There are all issues separate from what we were asked to vote on.
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You seem rather confused about what Brexit is - it is the UK leaving the EU, nothing more nothing less.
We were never asked did we want zero tariffs, zero state subsidies and so on. There are all issues separate from what we were asked to vote on.
May has been trying to become PM for all her political career, that is what she has made clear for decades, her policies, her actions have all been about that.
No one should ever think that she will do anything else bar attempt to remain PM as long as she can, I truly believe she cannot think outside of her own personal ambition.
Wudang
BOFH
May has always wanted to be PM indeed and seemingly had little clue what she wanted to do when she got there. Worrying Bojo and DD both also want to be PM but they can't even seem to handle the workload of the being cabinet ministers, too much work and too boring. Can you imagine what disasters they'd be as PM?
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
This is the fustercluck that you end up with when the most important political process since the Second World War is pursued by people who first last and only priorities are their personal enrichment and/or advancement.
If it does come to a leadership challenge I hope Davies' apparent sabotage of the process and Johnson's blatent treachery are remembered.
If it does come to a leadership challenge I hope Davies' apparent sabotage of the process and Johnson's blatent treachery are remembered.
IMO it's no better from the Labour side where the primary driver appears to be anti-capitalist dogma rather than personal enrichment and/or advancement.
IMO the biggest issue we have is the "democratic deficit" in Westminster whereby around 90% of the MPs belong to parties where the official Brexit position is supported by only 52% of those who voted in the referendum. For the Conservative Party it makes sense, more than 50% of their supporters voted Leave. It's the Labour Party turning its back on 60% of its supporters that has me scratching my head.
For either of these two esteemed gentlemen, being PM would be its own punishment. IMO the country is ******* anyway, a no-deal Brexit is a near inevitability and it'll take a decade or more before we're in a position to implement a Canada (or Canada+) type trade deal.
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
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John McKendrick QC Attorney General of Anguilla on Boris resigning.
(commenting on a photo of himself with Boris)
"Meeting worst Foreign Secretary we’ve ever had amongst the destruction of Hurricane Irma in Anguilla.
Disinterested and out of his depth he cared nothing for our situation.
Good riddance"
(commenting on a photo of himself with Boris)
"Meeting worst Foreign Secretary we’ve ever had amongst the destruction of Hurricane Irma in Anguilla.
Disinterested and out of his depth he cared nothing for our situation.
Good riddance"
Seems pretty obvious to me. The questions to ask are these:
How many pro-Europe Labour voters will go Tory or abstain over this issue?
How many anti-EU Labour voters would go Tory or abstain if Labour came out as anti-Brexit?
How many Tories would go Labour in either case?
IMO because the Labour leadership see Brexit as the first step towards breaking capitalism's grip on the UK which will eventually lead to the establishing of a workers' paradise.
Will pro-business Tories vote for Corbyn-Labour to stay in the EU? I don't see that happening, no matter how much they get **** on.
What about pro-Brexit Labour voters? Will they switch to the newly minted ****-business party? Hell, yes.
Will people say: 'Vote Leave psychologically manipulated me into voting for Brexit by spending more money'? Is that how people work in your experience?
Because lots of their "traditional" supporters voted to leave.
Corbyn-Labour is as enthusiastically Brexit as Rees-Mogg
Which party is this ?
No, but a minority may work out they were lied to.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
Of course, nothing is stopping people from splitting the parties into a Brexit-Tory party and a Bremain-Tory party, and ditto with Labour. In the 1930s, this happened with both Labour and Liberals over the issue whether to support the Tory-led "National" government and its austerity measures, and both parties survived. (It did result in a damnatio memoriae for Ramsay McDonald in Labour circles, though). Oh wait, there's that pesky FPTP issue; even AV would have been better in such a case.
May took 9 months from the referendum to write the article 50 letter. That was the time to devise a strategy and a goal. But now, another 15 months later, the cabinet still had to discuss to come to a consensus. And failed, witness the two resignations. That should tell everything about the utter foolishness of this venture and how the government handles it. Even if Barnier would draw up a draft agreement on his own, there would be no-one from the UK to sign it.
I assume it's a reference to Boris' comment with regards to businesses view of Brexit negotiations.
It's true that the two major parties both officially support Brexit. The Tories promised they would implement the result of the referendum, and promised it again in their last election manifesto. Labour also supported Brexit because that was the will of the majority of voters.
A more worrying "democratic deficit" is that while a majority of the public, and the two major parties support leaving, a large majority of MPs, from both the major parties, are remainers. That's the reason we are now moving towards this pathetic "Brexit in name only" policy that allows MPs to claim they implemented the will of the people while still remaining in all but name in the customs union and single market.
Hopefully the EU will say 'Non', to this attempted fudge and we will still be able to leave the EU in a clean way rather than becoming effectively a colony of the EU.
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
- Joined
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But imagine if they had to work out the whole having cake vs eating it before article 50? They never would have gotten that in if they had to agree on what kind of separation they were actually seeking before they give themselves a deadline to seperate.
That is the kind of crazy talk, like planning where you are going before the start of a vacation.
...but a minority of Labour voters which is why it's so strange that they've adopted it as party policy.
But that's exactly the type of Brexit that a number of prominent leaders of the Leave campaign, including BoJo, were promising
Straw much ?
Of course another alternative would be to avoid the political, diplomatic, personal and economic carnage that the "no-deal" Brexit you seem so desperate to have. I think you underestimate how messy what you think a clean break will be - but then again wilfully under-informed magical thinking is at the very core of Brexit
....well that and xenophobia
The question is: Why is Labour pro-Brexit? You say that it's ideology. I say that it's a perfectly rational way to maximize electoral chances.Corbyn-Labour is as enthusiastically Brexit as Rees-Mogg
It's indeed a reference to Johnson.
Faced with that realization, there are two possible reactions:
1)That does not concern me. I always supported Brexit for very good reasons. Now I'm on the winning side and getting what I want. Huzzah!
2)I was lied to and made a fool. The remain supporters were right all along. I'm such an idiot...
How many people are really going to go for door #2?
You might think that - I disagree.
I think they will remain strong in areas like the Welsh valleys which voted strongly for Brexit.
I think they are very vulnerable in metropolitan areas which are strongly Remain.
In a highly unscientific poll, the dozen or so local Labour supporters I know in this rural middle-class areas (including myself and Mrs Don) will not be voting Labour in the foreseeable future until the policy changes.
A friend's daughter who is sufficiently active in the party to have headed up the Labour group at her local university has resigned from the party over Brexit.
I think Labour are chasing votes they will never get, working class people who have voted Tory for a decade or two because they won't vote Labour regardless of the Labour policy on Brexit but stand to lose a host of urban and/or young voters who are actively pro-EU.
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