Trump immigrant family separation policy

Joecool said:
Now there's a well thought out intelligent comment.

If this exact same situation had happened with Obama as POTUS, I wonder how outraged some of you would be. I suspect a lot less than now.
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Quite frankly I'd be astonished if Obama did anything like this because not only did he not have an racist administration, he was also a halfway competent politician.

Had he done so then the criticism from the left would have been deafening - rather like the amount of criticism he got from the left over chickening out on healthcare and ending up with the ACA.

Of course Obama isn't the subject of this thread. Instead it's the Trump Administration taking children from their parents and putting them in cages indefinitely - and then it's that same Administration apparently backing down*, reversing their own decision and blaming both on the other party, as usual. :rolleyes:

* - I'll reserve judgement until people far more knowledgeable than I go through the fine print. Up to now President Trump's executive orders have been full of holes because they have been drafted in haste by rank incompetents - I expect nothing different from this one. I would not be shocked to find that instead of prohibiting children from being separated from their parents, it explicitly calls for it so long as some ridiculously low evidence bar has been cleared.
 
Minoosh said:
It's kind of sad, or ironic, or something, that in the quest to give youthful detainees privacy, we ended up making them faceless.
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Privacy or hide them because it's such bad publicity for the GOP?

I do believe it's the latter.
 
rwguinn said:
They could follow the law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158
Notice it says
Quote:
(1) In general

Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title.
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Despite the fact Trump/Sessions et al aren't following the law, they are also kangaroo courting these people to forgo their asylum bids.
 
The Don said:
Quite frankly I'd be astonished if Obama did anything like this because not only did he not have an racist administration, he was also a halfway competent politician.

Had he done so then the criticism from the left would have been deafening - rather like the amount of criticism he got from the left over chickening out on healthcare and ending up with the ACA.

Of course Obama isn't the subject of this thread. Instead it's the Trump Administration taking children from their parents and putting them in cages indefinitely - and then it's that same Administration apparently backing down*, reversing their own decision and blaming both on the other party, as usual. :rolleyes:

* - I'll reserve judgement until people far more knowledgeable than I go through the fine print. Up to now President Trump's executive orders have been full of holes because they have been drafted in haste by rank incompetents - I expect nothing different from this one. I would not be shocked to find that instead of prohibiting children from being separated from their parents, it explicitly calls for it so long as some ridiculously low evidence bar has been cleared.
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Some of this also happened under Obama, Bush etal. But nobody made an issue out of it until now. Granted it was less frequent.

The criticism from the left for most everything was "it was Bush's fault", even in the last few years of Obama's term. Or to blame congress for Obama's shortfalls while failing to credit the same congress for the good things that Obama achieved.

I didn't see much criticism and outrage from the left as Obama ran up record national debt. Let me guess, the response will be that it was Bush's fault?

And for the record, I'm more of a centrist rather than a far right or left leaning zealot.
 
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Segnosaur said:
Wow, I took a look at an article about him. He really lays into the Republicans. And its not just Trump that he's targeting but Ryan and McConnel.

From: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/steve-schmidt-renounces-gop_us_5b2a4ce8e4b05d6c16c96a05
29 years and nine months ago I registered to vote and became a member of The Republican Party which was founded in 1854 to oppose slavery and stand for the dignity of human life. Today I renounce my membership in the Republican Party. It is fully the party of Trump.
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It is corrupt, indecent and immoral. With the exception of a few Governors like Baker, Hogan and Kasich it is filled with feckless cowards who disgrace and dishonor the legacies of the party’s greatest leaders. This child separation policy is connected to the worst abuses of
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Humanity in our history. It is connected by the same evil that separated families during slavery and dislocated tribes and broke up Native American families. It is immoral and must be repudiated. Our country is in trouble. Our politics are badly broken. The first step to a
...
Season of renewal in our land is the absolute and utter repudiation of Trump and his vile enablers in the 2018 election by electing Democratic majorities. I do not say this as an advocate of a progressive agenda. I say it as someone who retains belief in DEMOCRACY and decency.
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On Ronald Reagan’s grave are these words. “ I know in my heart that man is good. That what is right will always eventually triumph and there is purpose and worth to each and every life.” He would be ashamed of McConnell and Ryan and all the rest while this corrupt government
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Establishes internment camps for babies. Everyone of these complicit leaders will carry this shame through history. There legacies will be ones of well earned ignominy. They have disgraced their country and brought dishonor to the Party of Lincoln.
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I have spent much of my life working in GOP politics. I have always believed that both parties were two of the most important institutions to the advancement of human freedom and dignity in the history of the world. Today the GOP has become a danger to our democracy and values.
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This Independent voter will be aligned with the only party left in America that stands for what is right and decent and remains fidelitous to our Republic, objective truth, the rule of law and our Allies. That party is the Democratic Party.
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Well, at least they can't accuse him of being a RINO anymore.
 
Segnosaur said:
Wow, I took a look at an article about him. He really lays into the Republicans. And its not just Trump that he's targeting but Ryan and McConnel.

From: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/steve-schmidt-renounces-gop_us_5b2a4ce8e4b05d6c16c96a05
29 years and nine months ago I registered to vote and became a member of The Republican Party which was founded in 1854 to oppose slavery and stand for the dignity of human life. Today I renounce my membership in the Republican Party. It is fully the party of Trump.
...
It is corrupt, indecent and immoral. With the exception of a few Governors like Baker, Hogan and Kasich it is filled with feckless cowards who disgrace and dishonor the legacies of the party’s greatest leaders. This child separation policy is connected to the worst abuses of
...
Humanity in our history. It is connected by the same evil that separated families during slavery and dislocated tribes and broke up Native American families. It is immoral and must be repudiated. Our country is in trouble. Our politics are badly broken. The first step to a
...
Season of renewal in our land is the absolute and utter repudiation of Trump and his vile enablers in the 2018 election by electing Democratic majorities. I do not say this as an advocate of a progressive agenda. I say it as someone who retains belief in DEMOCRACY and decency.
...
On Ronald Reagan’s grave are these words. “ I know in my heart that man is good. That what is right will always eventually triumph and there is purpose and worth to each and every life.” He would be ashamed of McConnell and Ryan and all the rest while this corrupt government
...
Establishes internment camps for babies. Everyone of these complicit leaders will carry this shame through history. There legacies will be ones of well earned ignominy. They have disgraced their country and brought dishonor to the Party of Lincoln.
...
I have spent much of my life working in GOP politics. I have always believed that both parties were two of the most important institutions to the advancement of human freedom and dignity in the history of the world. Today the GOP has become a danger to our democracy and values.
...
This Independent voter will be aligned with the only party left in America that stands for what is right and decent and remains fidelitous to our Republic, objective truth, the rule of law and our Allies. That party is the Democratic Party.
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Very powerful but sadly there are too many words.

The only people who could be bothered to read more than the first phrase are already implacably opposed to President Trump. The casual voter (whether nominally Democrat, GOP or independent ) who has little or no interest in politics outside the election cycles and even then who deals almost entirely in soundbites will let all of this pass them by :(.
 
What is lost in all of this is that these, people trying to get into the US are what almost all of us once were. Pro Trump pundits should remember that not too far back in their family trees there are ancestors who were the huddled masses yearning to be free. Germany, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Poland, Spain, were all "**** holes". They were basket cases, bordering on being failed states and their people fled and came here.

Immigration is in our national DNA. The genius of America is that you can come here and go as far as your drive, ability, determination can take you. If this country, born of an entrepreneurial spirit can't find a way to harness and nurture the drive, determination, and perseverance of people escaping war, murder and poverty then we've completely lost the plot.

Our basic decency, respect for human rights and sense of fairness are an element of our national power. Consider for a moment that Germans in WWII, at the end of the war, rushed to surrender to Americans. Our enemy, one whose cities we bombed to rubble, whose armies we'd defeated, ran to surrender to us. What other nation can say that?

To abandon what is the best of us; to give in to our base instincts is to give up the very thing that makes us powerful. As large as our armies and navies are, we cannot be a superpower with our military alone. It is our basic decency as a people that draws the world toward us and in turn allows us to project out power. In a misguided attempt to become great again, we may have just lost that which makes us good and it is what makes us good that makes us powerful.
 
Those who climbed last into the lifeboat are often those most loudly proclaiming that the boat is now full and that the rest should drown.
 
On The 11th Hour this evening Stephanie Ruhle had a recorded interview with a few Baptist (?) Pastors. One (a middle-aged white guy) emphatically stated that elected (or maybe not even elected, for all we can tell) politicians were selected by God, and hence must be trusted and supported.

Stephanie should have pointed out to this tool that Hitler was an elected politician too.

Looking to more recent times, she might have asked if Obama enjoyed the same support from him. After all, even more folk voted for him than for Trump.

I suspect that if an honest answer were to be proffered, the hypocrisy would be rank.

As a middle-aged white guy, I can honestly say that our race/generation/gender can't die out soon enough. Sure, not all of us are embittered bigots pining for the '50s. But I've seen enough of 'em to realize that as a group we'd do the world a favor by going extinct. And sooner being better, before infecting too many among the following generations. But then, maybe we're too late...

Whites have got to realize that diversity is strength. Even at the genetic level. Hell, the world is becoming increasingly more darkly complected, as racial animus declines in a more egalitarian, cosmopolitan world. (And whites make fewer babies.) Rural hicks who cling to their nostalgic and never-to-be-resurrected past times have got to get with the program, or get the hell out of the way and let the realists run the show.
 
The Don said:
Very powerful but sadly there are too many words.

The only people who could be bothered to read more than the first phrase are already implacably opposed to President Trump. The casual voter (whether nominally Democrat, GOP or independent ) who has little or no interest in politics outside the election cycles and even then who deals almost entirely in soundbites will let all of this pass them by :(.
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That's not the main point of this condemnation. It will have two quite visible effects, one is that it might pull a few GOP voters who dislike Trump but would still vote for him to stay at home come Novembers 2018 and 2020. It will also energize those that oppose him since if a person this important abandoned him, victory is nigh, driving up their voter participation on those same two dates.

It may also reduce campaign contributions to GOP somewhat.

Overall it's not a massive victory, but one of those small tactical ones that make the fight a little easier and a light at the end of the tunnel.

It doesn't really matter all that much how many people he might convince with a few twitter posts. That number was tiny to begin with anyway.

McHrozni
 
Craig4 said:
And well beneath the standards we've set for ourselves.
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How do you figure that?

The standard Americans have set is having a narcissistic bully and coward and President. You're getting exactly what the electorate voted for - pure democracy in action.
 
Craig4 said:
The genius of America is that you can come here and go as far as your drive, ability, determination can take you.
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That's certainly the myth of America. But there are plenty of driven, capable, determined people who don't succeed, and the reason the myth is problematic is that it reinforces the idea that people like Trump thrive on - that anybody who is poor or unsuccessful deserves to be because they just didn't work hard enough, and that anybody who is rich deserves to be because they got there through hard work.

I understand your sentiment in context, but what you're actually expressing is insidious and poisonous.

Consider for a moment that Germans in WWII, at the end of the war, rushed to surrender to Americans. Our enemy, one whose cities we bombed to rubble, whose armies we'd defeated, ran to surrender to us. What other nation can say that?
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All of the Allies can. And the Germans weren't so much rushing to surrender to us, as they were rushing not to surrender to the USSR - because if they did they'd likely end up in concentration camps themselves, because the worst of the fighting was against the USSR and the USSR suffered the biggest losses by a long chalk.
 
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TomB said:
Are those the only two choices? I don't think it's honest to say so.
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Who does not count as one or the other in Republican congress now? The republican party has become Trumpist so nationally voting for them is supporting him.

When someone highly critical of Trump can win a nomination let me know.
 
xjx388 said:
I don't think that support for the tax bill implies any kind of support for the family separation policy. One can support policy W, X and Y while abhorring policy Z.

Many conservatives are sad it had to be that way too.
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Except that you know it didn't have to be that way. Kind of like when the abusive spouse is sad at what the abused is making them do. So sad they have to get hit like that.
 
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