Should the Baltic Germans be compensated by Russia?

[ddt]

It's economic evolution. It only became obsolete because of the industrial revolution. Serfs were needed as workers, instead.

In most of Western Europe (at least England, France and the Low Countries), servitude had been abolished by 1500. The Industrial Revolution would not come for another 300 years. The great exception was Germany (the HRE), hence the 1525 Peasants' War, which your cult leader so vigorously denounced. (Oh, and Scotland too, lest Craig gets miffed ).

Do most bosses treat their employees well? If you look at history, workers had to fight for every right: the right to sick pay, holidays, maternity leave, paternity leave, pensions, job security, right not to be sacked without a proper reason, etc.etc.

You use this vague waffle about the workers' fight for rights to defend servitude, bondage, that extended into the 19th Century, centuries after it had been abolished elsewhere in Europe?

Be that as it may. It wasn't always the fault of the landowner that people turned up on their land as serfs:

Russian Serfs. Serfdom was not the original status of the Russian peasant. It was one of the consequences of the Tartar devastation during the 13th century when peasants became homeless and settled on the land of wealthy Russians

http://spartacus-educational.com/RUSserfs.htm

Ah yes, and in 1820 the Golden Horde was still around the corner, exacting tribute from the poor rulers of Muscovy.

I should make it clear, I in no way condone serfdom or slavery. I cannot believe four in five Russians were once serfs. I dare say there is an historical reason for this development.

After all your fallacies to defend it, how credible do you think that statement is?

However, just as being a serf is an accident of birth, so is the land holder.

Ah yes, and that makes it all right again. Just an accident of birth.

 

[Vixen]

It's the first time I see someone speak of themself in the second person.


Which still leaves an awful lot of other companies they can go work for.

... and such companies damn well justify before a judge the amounts they demand as payback.

Really?

You carefully avoid mentioning the reason. I can make a guess. Under the Dutch Civil Code, art. 99, of 1838 - which was valid until 1970 - children under 30 years needed parental permission for a marriage. My grandmother didn't get permission either, hence my grandparents eloped to France and got married there. (France also had a requirement for parental permission beyond adulthood, but to a lesser age).

He could also not have gotten it and given up his right to become British Monarch. And that's really the only job where such an anomaly exists.

Really, you compare this extended parental permission - you know, permission from the two people who raised you and are responsible for your well-being - to serfdom where serfs lifelong had to get permission to marry from their masters?


Way to misinterpret. Employers and employees are equal under the law. Serfs and their masters were not.


You have no way to prove that hypothetical, and anyway, your example is canon law, and the infraction of the dispute is not against another person but against the church.


TUPE requires the acquiring company to honour the job contracts with the employees that the acquired company had signed. That's quite another thing than a master who can dispose of serfs as he sees fit and sell them to someone else as if they're property.

Really, every single one of your counter arguments is a fallacy.

The so-called 'masters' had to follow the rules, too.

The Sobornoye Ulozhenie (Соборное уложение, "Code of Law") of 1649 gave serfs to estates, and in 1658, flight was made a criminal offense. Russian landowners eventually gained almost unlimited ownership over Russian serfs.[6] The landowner could transfer the serf without land to another landowner while keeping the serf's personal property and family; however, the landowner had no right to kill the serf.[7] About four-fifths of Russian peasants were serfs according to the censuses of 1678 and 1719; free (black) peasants remained only in the North and North-East of the country.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Russia

My grandmother was actually aged 30 when she married my grandfather. The reason she had to get permission is because her parents owned 'noble land' (a kartano [manor house] and a wide area of farmland) and marriage was thus restricted.

 

[ddt]

The so-called 'masters' had to follow the rules, too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Russia

Ah yes, as long as a master was not allowed to kill a serf, it's alright.

My grandmother was actually aged 30 when she married my grandfather. The reason she had to get permission is because her parents owned 'noble land' (a kartano [manor house] and a wide area of farmland) and marriage was thus restricted.

Whatever the reason (and I note you don't cite actual laws), the main point here is that parental permission is quite another thing than permission from a serf's master.

 

[Vixen]

Ah yes, as long as a master was not allowed to kill a serf, it's alright.


Whatever the reason (and I note you don't cite actual laws), the main point here is that parental permission is quite another thing than permission from a serf's master.

I didn't say it was all right. I pointed out that everybody understood the rules. The masters were also hidebound by them.

In the case of Swedish/Finnish nobility the privileges were only hereditary if you obeyed the rules.

I didn't say it was good or bad, just that this was the way things were.

I just think it is a shame the estates in Estonia (Livonia & Courland / Marienland) are no more. I feel it is an historical loss.

But hey, time hurries on, and the leaves that are green turn to brown.

 

[sackett]

Hey, Vixen, you seem to keep track of your ancestors, Baltic Germans by the sound of it.

How much would you personally stand to gain if this compensation scheme went through?

 

[ddt]

During the war, many of these dispossessed Baltic Germans moved back to the area we now know as Estonia, Latvia and part East Prussia and Lithuania (Livonia, Courland, Ugania, Lettland, etc). This era was known as the White Terror as the returning Germans tried to suppress the communist regime now in place under Stalin.

Here's another falsehood in your OP. From your own wiki link:

After the Nazi attack on the Soviet Union and the conquering of Latvia and Estonia, a small number of Baltic Germans were allowed to return in order to serve as translators, but requests of many resettled Germans to be allowed to return to their homelands were denied by Himmler's SS. Many German Baltic men were mobilized in the occupied Warthegau and served in the German army.

I think by now, every paragraph in your OP has been proven false from the very link you provided there.

 

[Vixen]

Hey, Vixen, you seem to keep track of your ancestors, Baltic Germans by the sound of it.

How much would you personally stand to gain if this compensation scheme went through?

That is not the rationale. True, I very recently discovered the Baltic German line (Von Jordan, Von Grotthusen, Fircks and Tiesenhausen) because my sixth grandmother was a Von Jordan and her mother was a Swedish-Finnish noble, Eneskjöld, whose mother was Elisabeth von Grothusen whose mother was Swedish noble, Elin Hansdotter till Lepas (Lejon), daughter of Karin Henriksdotter Horn af Kanckas, daughter of Henrik Klasson Horn (b 1512) - my eleventh great-grandfather.

THe reason I am telling you this is because I was intrigued as to how Von Jordan and Grotthusen came to be living in Finland and marrying into the Swedish nobility in Finland.

Otto Johan von Grothusen 1570, in Livonia, was Elisabet Von Grotthusen's father. Elisabet is buried in Turku Cathedral, in Finland. Otto's mother was Catharina von Lüdinghausen gen.Wulff, daughter of Elisabeth (Ilse) von Fircks, all of Livonia. Otto's father was Christoffer von Grotthuss , of Meselau, whose mother was a Von Ungern, whose own mother was a Von Tiesenhausen.

I did some research and discovered that Otto I had originally come from Nordkirchen, in the vicinity of Lüdinghausen in Westphalia, which was still in the family estate in 1359.

His son 0 t t o (... 1543) heir of his father's estates, bought the Ruhenthal estates in 1505 His son, born in 1542-1560, was master ruler and in 1543 communicated with his brothers in such a way that he himself took over Ruhenthal, From Ruhenthal, the Livonian branch went to M e s e l au

Grothusen is an old nobleman whose roots go to Westphalia and there is the Kreis in the village of Ludkirchen in Nordkirchen. Here the family lived and influenced already in the 14th century. From Grothusen's foundations, the family branched along with von Morrien (Morian) and several other families to Münster and Livonia.

The Black Death raged in the mid-1300s. A devastating strain went through the whole of Europe. The disease killed people in the masses. In many places, almost everyone in the area died. As a result, Europe had 25 million less mouths to feed. Grain was in oversupply and the price fell.

However, in Westfalen, the village of Nordkirchen remained a state-owned farm, which is still in the possession of the Grothusen family.

The Baltic Ritterschaft was an ethnically secluded and remarkably small elite, consisting of only 200 to 300 families.

Otto II:

von Grotthuss, Otto

The family continued to expand its holdings so that it possessed at least 50 different locations in Kurland and Livonia during different periods of time and had over 56,000 hectares of land under their control.

spouses:
¤¤ 1) von Ungern, Elisabeth (noble).

It is mentioned in the document from 1577
Father: von Ungern, Heinrich (noble).

Mother: von Tiesenhausen, Gertrud (noble).

Son: Christoffer von Grothusen, the line came from Ruental to Meselovi in Livonia in 1715.

spouse:
¤¤ 1) von Lüdinghausen, Catharina (a nobleman).

Gen. Wolff

Between Meselov and Löser, the villages were home to Kuit, where Christoffer von Grothusen's wife Catharina von Lüdinghausen was born.

Father: von Lüdinghausen, Georg (nobleman).
Mother: von Fircks, Ilse (noble)

Son: von Grothusen, Otto Johan III

He was a ruler in 1612 under Colonel Evert Horn; received 16.4.1614 Källfjärd in Vittisbofjärds sn in Finland in a donation under Norrköping's decision terms. Attended the Russian ten-year war; Commander of the war people in Kexholms län 9.6.1615; Horseman of a Dutchman Rider 3.2.1618, which he brought during the war in Livland and Germany; called major 1633; submarine champion in Finland 7.4.1638. Natural Swedish nobility 1642.

At the end of the Russian War in 1617, the Finnish cavalry consisted of seven flags, including: Otto von Grothusen (Uusimaa).

Now here is the truly stunning part:

Otto von Grothusen was acquainted with Jaakko De la Gardie and Evert Horn in Livonia. Grothusen's wife Elin Hansdotter Lejon, was the cousin of Evert Horn. In the Russian War, Otto von Grothusen fought with the Horn troops. Both Horn and Grothusen were involved in the first Russian tour of Jaakko De la Garde in 1609.

Otto von Grothusen, a knight, accompanied the hot Baltian-German nobility from Livonia to Satakunta (Finland). In the veins of Otto von Grothusen's offspring von Tiesenhausen, von Ungern, von Rosen, von Wrangel, von Ludinghausen, von Fircks and many other noblemen, who for centuries decided on the fate of the Baltic Sea provinces.

Otto von Grothusen's first wife was Elin Hansdotter, buried on 23 February 1616 in Turku Cathedral. Her parents were Lieutenant Hans Björnsson till Lepas and Carin Henriksdotter Horn af Kanckas.

Carin's father was Henrik Klasson Horn, 1512 - 1595, and Henrik's other children's spouses were among others. Fleming, Kurck and Stålarm. One of Carin's brothers was Kaarle Henrikinpoika (1550-1601), the Estonian governor, and his son was Kustaa Horn, 1592-1657, mm. Head of the Swedish Army of Germany

They had already been trying to conquer the city of Riga in 1601, 1605 and 1607, but every time it had failed. In 1621, the Swedes embarked on a serious mission. Horseman Otto von Grothusen and then Vicar Mikael von Jordan participated in the same battle. The city of Riga was conquered in 1621. Grothusen rode in the Jaakko de and Gardie troops and Mikael von Jordan was among them who first rushed to boats.
The first yacht charter in Finland.

So there was my answer. Von Grotthusen and Von Jordan came to Finland as a reward of the Swedish king. They married into the Swedish nobility (Horn, et al) because...they had all fought together in the Thirty Years War.

In effect, but for a sheer accident of history, yours truly would not be here today.

I felt sad that the estates in Livonia no longer exist because the family still has land in Finland. It is the greatest feeling in the world to kiss the earth and know that it will be passed on to future generations.

It really is not anything to do with money, profit or exploiting serfs.

Sources: various including Timo Kause.

 

[sackett]

Vixie, I have to ask: What on earth are you babbling about?

 

[Garrison]

Vixie, I have to ask: What on earth are you babbling about?

I think its another effort to avoid the simple fact that their original premise was complete nonsense by burying it under a pile of irrelevance.

 

[Vixen]

That's what I mean. Plenty of land to give some back to those Baltic Germans.


Are you really that ignorant???

Link: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12330405#post12330405


50,000 m² /12.355 acres will cost the hypothetical Baltic German €2.5m, and that's before development. But as they had no compensation, perhaps you can suggest ways they might find the money?


https://tranio.com/finland/land/

 

[Vixen]

That's what I mean. Plenty of land to give some back to those Baltic Germans.


Are you really that ignorant???

Ironic you call an informed person such as myself 'ignorant'.

However, citizens of the Nordic Passport Union countries enjoy extra rights within the Nordic area, not available under Schengen, such as less paperwork if moving to a different Nordic country, and fewer requirements for naturalization or citizenship. Within the Nordic area, any Nordic identity documentation (e.g. a driving license) is valid as proof of identity for Nordic citizens because of the Nordic Passport Union, while a national identity card or a passport is can be required in other Schengen countries. Most Scandinavian people do not own any Schengen approved national ID card, so they need a passport when visiting most Schengen countries outside the Nordic area,[7] having in mind that most Schengen countries on the continent require possession of identity documentation by anyone, generally checked by hotels.

As for right of residence, that doesn't come with Schengen. You remain a visitor.

Exemption of passport or residence permit
The protocol concerning the exemption of nationals of Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden from the obligation to have a passport or residence permit while resident in a Nordic country other than their own,[12] was signed on 22 May 1954 in Copenhagen.

The protocol was implemented by individual but concurrent decisions by the governments of each of the countries, and can be revoked in case of war, danger of war, or other extraordinary international or national circumstances.

The protocol provides that citizens of the Nordic countries can travel without passport or other travel documentation to any other Nordic country. Citizens of the Nordic countries can reside without residence permit in any other Nordic country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union

 

[Vixen]

I think its another effort to avoid the simple fact that their original premise was complete nonsense by burying it under a pile of irrelevance.

I note on Amazon.com, there are a whole load of academic books on this subject, so it looks like they are all wrong and you are right.

 

[Rincewind]

I've been doing a bit of reading about this. OK - Mostly Wiki...

As the Baltic Germans arrived for the Baltic Crusades, to convert the pagans and followers of the Eastern Orthodox church, the land in places like Estonia, Livonia and so on already had owners. As I think has been mentioned, mostly farmers and fishers.
I didn't see anything that stated that these crusaders actually bought the land from the owners.

So, if we're talking about compensation for the Baltic Germans, how about the Baltic Germans' descendants compensating the Estonian/Livonian/etc's descendants?

 

[ddt]

Ironic you call an informed person such as myself 'ignorant'.

You're so informed that you haven't yet made a single true claim in this thread.

As for right of residence, that doesn't come with Schengen. You remain a visitor.

No, but you said:

Only the Scandinavians have free movement into it.

which refers to border controls. And which is clearly a falsehood. And EU citizens have the right of residence.

 

[ddt]

I note on Amazon.com, there are a whole load of academic books on this subject, so it looks like they are all wrong and you are right.

So why don't you pick one and quote some relevant bits from it?

 

[Vixen]

I've been doing a bit of reading about this. OK - Mostly Wiki...

As the Baltic Germans arrived for the Baltic Crusades, to convert the pagans and followers of the Eastern Orthodox church, the land in places like Estonia, Livonia and so on already had owners. As I think has been mentioned, mostly farmers and fishers.
I didn't see anything that stated that these crusaders actually bought the land from the owners.

So, if we're talking about compensation for the Baltic Germans, how about the Baltic Germans' descendants compensating the Estonian/Livonian/etc's descendants?

Rincewind, AIUI the Baltic area is/was covered in dense woodland/forest and probably didn't have concepts of legal ownership?

The early nobility (which included the clergy, who were entitled to a manor house) took possession originally - the land most likely was vacant anyway - and subsequently passed into the possession of the Crown (as in other parts of the Swedish empire).

Anyway I have to back my illustrious great-great (x24) grandparent:

"Eric the Holy, King of Sweden is your 24th great grandfather." (geni . com)

Aka St Eric patron saint of Stockholm. Who brought Christianity to the pagan masses.

 

[Vixen]

You're so informed that you haven't yet made a single true claim in this thread.


No, but you said:

which refers to border controls. And which is clearly a falsehood. And EU citizens have the right of residence.

EU membership is all very recent in the grand scheme of things and it is also only relatively recently that foreigners were allowed to buy property in Finland without special permission.

I don't see why the German & Russian governments can't club together and arrange adequate compensation for those Baltic Germans turfed off their land, such as the Donhoff lady referred to recently, or their direct descendants as heirs.

 

[Vixen]

So why don't you pick one and quote some relevant bits from it?

There is this one for a start:

The Death of East Prussia describes the immense collateral damage inflicted on East Prussia resulting from Hitler's war of annihilation in Poland and the Soviet Union. The Red Army sought revenge when it invaded the province in the winter of 1945. Thousands of Germans tried to flee rampaging Soviet soldiers who raped, assaulted, murdered and pillaged with abandon. A wealth of eyewitness testimony provides gripping, personal narratives of the indomitable will of the East Prussians to survive under horrific conditions. The end was foreshadowed when the wartime Allies divided East Prussia between Russia and Poland and approved the expulsion of all East Prussians. Now outcasts in their own homeland, many succumbed to starvation and disease as virtual slave laborers for their new masters, and the survivors were expelled in the late 1940s. This ethnic cleansing of East Prussia was the price paid for Nazi Germany's own ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe. Complementing this tale of human suffering is an historical analysis showing that geography, revenge and political calculation can explain the extinction of East Prussia.

Why anyone would think their plight 'irrelevant' is beyond me.

Also: Before The Storm: Memories of My Youth in Old Prussia Hardcover – November 21, 1990
by Marion Graf Donhoff (Author)

A German newspaperwoman recounts her girlhood in a noble family in East Prussia and her escape from the Russians.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

There is this one for a start:




Why anyone would think their plight 'irrelevant' is beyond me.

Also: Before The Storm: Memories of My Youth in Old Prussia Hardcover – November 21, 1990
by Marion Graf Donhoff (Author)

Oh dear, shades of "double genocide" right there.

 

[erwinl]

There is this one for a start:




Why anyone would think their plight 'irrelevant' is beyond me.

Also: Before The Storm: Memories of My Youth in Old Prussia Hardcover – November 21, 1990
by Marion Graf Donhoff (Author)

Considering the influence Prussia had on the course of politics in Germany up to and including nazi Germany, don't you think people from other countries had some kind of point that they didn't want to live next to a 'von' anymore?