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Should the Baltic Germans be compensated by Russia?

Now killing them was bad. But that's a civil war for you. Usually very uncivil indeed.

There's a family photo of my 2x-great-grandmother with a glass eye and scars on her face, courtesy of the Tsar's pogroms.

The execution probably wasn't the most just thing (especially the kids), but I'm not too upset about it.
 
Being a serf is not necessarily being "abused", any more than someone having to go out and earn a wage (oh, is that the time...?)

Are... are you defending serfdom?

I... wow. Shall we do the "most masters treated their slaves well" tango as well?
 
Being a serf is not necessarily being "abused", any more than someone having to go out and earn a wage (oh, is that the time...?)

Are you conflating the need to provide an income to support yourself with a social status whereby you:

a. Are prohibited from seeking employment other than that authorized by your master;
b. Are prohibited from seeking better opportunities elsewhere;
c. Are not allowed to make significant life choices without consulting your master;
d. Have different legal rights than your master;
e. Have no right of recourse for wrongs committed against you by your master; and
f. Are considered to be a semi-sentient part of the estate (ie. you and your services can be sold off to pay your master's debts)
 
Are... are you defending serfdom?

I... wow. Shall we do the "most masters treated their slaves well" tango as well?

It's economic evolution. It only became obsolete because of the industrial revolution. Serfs were needed as workers, instead.


Do most bosses treat their employees well? If you look at history, workers had to fight for every right: the right to sick pay, holidays, maternity leave, paternity leave, pensions, job security, right not to be sacked without a proper reason, etc.etc.
 
Are you conflating the need to provide an income to support yourself with a social status whereby you:

a. Are prohibited from seeking employment other than that authorized by your master;
b. Are prohibited from seeking better opportunities elsewhere;
c. Are not allowed to make significant life choices without consulting your master;
d. Have different legal rights than your master;
e. Have no right of recourse for wrongs committed against you by your master; and
f. Are considered to be a semi-sentient part of the estate (ie. you and your services can be sold off to pay your master's debts)

a. Many companies have a clause in their small print that you cannot work for a rival within X no. of months/years of leaving.

b. Many trainee professionals get study support on the condition they stay with the employer up to three years (I heard this was the case in Australia for student accountants) after qualifying, or you have to pay it all back.

c. Depends what you mean by this. It probably applies to both landowner and serf. For example, my grandmother had to get permission from her parents to marry my grandfather. They refused permission for a prior suitor. Harry had to get permission from the Queen to marry Meghan.

d. In any contract the interests of the contractor and contractee are bound to be differentiated.

e. I am sure your master could not get away with crimes against your person, even under feudalism. One of my forebears was subjected to canon law for having a dispute during a church service, with another member of the congregation. She was fined X amount. She was a noblewoman. Had she been one of the commoners, she would have been made to sit by the door in penance.

f. Have you heard of TUPE? In the UK, this refers to your employers changing because the company you work for has been taken over by another company. You can decline, but then you are out of work.
 
Why don't you give us that list? That wiki article included lots of wars that didn't come close to Finland.


This is something you can easily find for yourself.

As an example, my sixth great-grandfather is said to have married just in time before the Russians arrived, making him and his bride flee.

Kosken Tl historian mukaan "Nyhässä asunut kornetti Christian Bergin rouva ehti ennen venäläisten tuloa lähteä pakoon" (venäläiset olivat marssineet 28.8.1713 Turkuun ja ryöstelivät viikon verran lähipitäjiä ja palasivat sitten Helsinkiin).

This would have been during the Great Northern War (he was a major).
 
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It's economic evolution. It only became obsolete because of the industrial revolution. Serfs were needed as workers, instead.

No, that's a bunch of determinist hogwash. Serfdom in Russia ended for political reasons. Similarly, the industrial revolution didn't simply create a demand for workers - farmers increasingly moved into cities when working the land wasn't profitable enough, and the mechanics surrounding that were incredibly complex and still hotly debated. Industrialization took a long, long time to pay off and was incredibly costly in terms of the human toll.

Economics do not just fix things. That's a comforting neoliberal mythology that devalues protest and activism.

Do most bosses treat their employees well? If you look at history, workers had to fight for every right: the right to sick pay, holidays, maternity leave, paternity leave, pensions, job security, right not to be sacked without a proper reason, etc.etc.

"Robber barons were terrible too, so slavery and serfdom weren't too bad"? Is that your argument?
 
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No, that's a bunch of determinist hogwash. Serfdom in Russia ended for political reasons. Similarly, the industrial revolution didn't simply create a demand for workers - farmers increasingly moved into cities when working the land wasn't profitable enough, and the mechanics surrounding that were incredibly complex and still hotly debated. Industrialization took a long, long time to pay off and was incredibly costly in terms of the human toll.

Economics do not just fix things. That's a comforting neoliberal mythology that devalues protest and activism.



"Robber barons were terrible too, so slavery and serfdom weren't too bad"? Is that your argument?

Be that as it may. It wasn't always the fault of the landowner that people turned up on their land as serfs:

Russian Serfs. Serfdom was not the original status of the Russian peasant. It was one of the consequences of the Tartar devastation during the 13th century when peasants became homeless and settled on the land of wealthy Russians
http://spartacus-educational.com/RUSserfs.htm

I should make it clear, I in no way condone serfdom or slavery. I cannot believe four in five Russians were once serfs. I dare say there is an historical reason for this development.

However, just as being a serf is an accident of birth, so is the land holder.
 
Now you are being very, very silly.

Well someone is, but its not ddt. You have repeatedly dodged facts to try and hold Russia to blame for the fate of the Baltic Germans as well as ignoring the fact that the pre 1918 status of the Baltic Germans was essentially feudal and oppressive.

ETA: Oh and the answer to your OP is still no, modern Russia has no liability for the actions of the independent Baltic republics, Nazi Germany or the USSR.
 
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Well someone is, but its not ddt. You have repeatedly dodged facts to try and hold Russia to blame for the fate of the Baltic Germans as well as ignoring the fact that the pre 1918 status of the Baltic Germans was essentially feudal and oppressive.

ETA: Oh and the answer to your OP is still no, modern Russia has no liability for the actions of the independent Baltic republics, Nazi Germany or the USSR.

And no doubt you don't believe Russians have any responsibility for the assassination of the Czar and his family.
 
And no doubt you don't believe Russians have any responsibility for the assassination of the Czar and his family.

A complete non-sequitur. The Baltic Republics took the Baltic Germans privileges away and 96% of their land, Hitler evacuated the majority of them prior to 1941 and Russia is not the same entity as the USSR. The facts you provided prove your suggestion is a nonsense, but you are apparently intent on throwing up endless irrelevances to avoid accepting that fact.
 
A complete non-sequitur. The Baltic Republics took the Baltic Germans privileges away and 96% of their land, Hitler evacuated the majority of them prior to 1941 and Russia is not the same entity as the USSR. The facts you provided prove your suggestion is a nonsense, but you are apparently intent on throwing up endless irrelevances to avoid accepting that fact.

You have ignored my later posts.

But do keep harping on.
 
And no doubt you don't believe Russians have any responsibility for the assassination of the Czar and his family.

Ah, the Wookie Defence.

I don't see it as being "harping on" by Garrison to point out the facts that you seem reluctant to acknowledge.
 
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Ah, the Wookie Defence.

I don't see it as being "harping on" by Garrison to point out the facts that you seem reluctant to acknowledge.

I have since said that Estonia and Latvia should recompense them in principle (not that it will ever happen). If that isn't 'acknowledging the facts', then what is?

I disagree that today's Russia has nothing to do with the USSR.

Heck, Putin has said he is a staunch Stalinist.
 
Now you are being very, very silly.
It's the first time I see someone speak of themself in the second person.:rolleyes:

a. Many companies have a clause in their small print that you cannot work for a rival within X no. of months/years of leaving.
Which still leaves an awful lot of other companies they can go work for.
b. Many trainee professionals get study support on the condition they stay with the employer up to three years (I heard this was the case in Australia for student accountants) after qualifying, or you have to pay it all back.
... and such companies damn well justify before a judge the amounts they demand as payback.
c. Depends what you mean by this. It probably applies to both landowner and serf.
Really?
For example, my grandmother had to get permission from her parents to marry my grandfather. They refused permission for a prior suitor.
You carefully avoid mentioning the reason. I can make a guess. Under the Dutch Civil Code, art. 99, of 1838 - which was valid until 1970 - children under 30 years needed parental permission for a marriage. My grandmother didn't get permission either, hence my grandparents eloped to France and got married there. (France also had a requirement for parental permission beyond adulthood, but to a lesser age).
Harry had to get permission from the Queen to marry Meghan.
He could also not have gotten it and given up his right to become British Monarch. And that's really the only job where such an anomaly exists.

Really, you compare this extended parental permission - you know, permission from the two people who raised you and are responsible for your well-being - to serfdom where serfs lifelong had to get permission to marry from their masters? :rolleyes:

d. In any contract the interests of the contractor and contractee are bound to be differentiated.
Way to misinterpret. Employers and employees are equal under the law. Serfs and their masters were not.

e. I am sure your master could not get away with crimes against your person, even under feudalism. One of my forebears was subjected to canon law for having a dispute during a church service, with another member of the congregation. She was fined X amount. She was a noblewoman. Had she been one of the commoners, she would have been made to sit by the door in penance.
You have no way to prove that hypothetical, and anyway, your example is canon law, and the infraction of the dispute is not against another person but against the church.

f. Have you heard of TUPE? In the UK, this refers to your employers changing because the company you work for has been taken over by another company. You can decline, but then you are out of work.
TUPE requires the acquiring company to honour the job contracts with the employees that the acquired company had signed. That's quite another thing than a master who can dispose of serfs as he sees fit and sell them to someone else as if they're property.

Really, every single one of your counter arguments is a fallacy.
 
Ah, the Wookie Defence.

I don't see it as being "harping on" by Garrison to point out the facts that you seem reluctant to acknowledge.
After how much effort is it reasonable to change "reluctant to acknowledge" into "deny"?
 
I have since said that Estonia and Latvia should recompense them in principle (not that it will ever happen). If that isn't 'acknowledging the facts', then what is?
Oh wow, you did in post #126, whereas Garrison was so late to the party that he only pointed out the fatal flaw in your OP in post #2. :rolleyes:

I disagree that today's Russia has nothing to do with the USSR.

Heck, Putin has said he is a staunch Stalinist.

<citation required>
 

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