Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

[quadraginta]

Manafort definitely thrown under the bus: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1007679422865006593

Wow, what a tough sentence for Paul Manafort, who has represented Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole and many other top political people and campaigns. Didn’t know Manafort was the head of the Mob. What about Comey and Crooked Hillary and all of the others? Very unfair!

What "sentence"? I thought Manafort was still waiting for trial(s).

Does Trump know about some sooper seekrit convictions that haven't been made public yet?

 

[acbytesla]

Politico said Paul Manafort was not handcuffed while in the courtroom which seems like an odd thing to point out. Surely there would be no reason to do so unless the defendant was deemed likely to physically attack someone or something similar?

I've seen defendants handcuffed in court. But you're right. There is very little reason to cuff him

 

[acbytesla]

I've seen defendants handcuffed in court. But you're right. There is very little reason to cuff him

He's going to love the cavity search.

 

[Crossbow]

Politico said Paul Manafort was not handcuffed while in the courtroom which seems like an odd thing to point out. Surely there would be no reason to do so unless the defendant was deemed likely to physically attack someone or something similar?

That is quite typical.

After all, white collar criminals are usually treated far better than are the other types of criminals.

 

[varwoche]

On the issue of Manafort flipping: Is there public information available right now that provides good evidence that Manafort has something on Trump to deal? Is it possible that Manfort's Russian/Ukranian connections are just a coincidence with regard to anything that Trump and his minions were up to? ETA: There is the Trump Tower meeting, but maybe he was just there to find out what the Russians had and he wasn't part of any effort to cooperate with the Russians and their efforts to get Trump elected?

Apparently Manafort was involved in the watering down of the pro Ukraine language in the GOP platform, which he and Trump lied about. Why lie if it was innocent? It's possible that was part of a quid pro quo.

 

[Segnosaur]

The other problem is that in addition to federal charges (money laundering, illegal lobbying, making false statement) Manafort also faces state charges in Virginia

The Virginia charges are federal as well.

I stand corrected.

 

[davefoc]

Apparently Manafort was involved in the watering down of the pro Ukraine language in the GOP platform, which he and Trump lied about. Why lie if it was innocent? It's possible that was part of a quid pro quo.

A good point. Although it is not clear, short of evidence for an unambiguous quid pro quo, that this kind of thing can be prosecuted. Trump is engaging in behavior that seems wildly pro Putin right now. It may well be that Trump's Russian debts are a driver but if that is the case it would be very difficult to prove that Trump is acting illegally. Even if Trump is being controlled by Russian mob blackmail proving that might not be possible and Manafort may not have any direct knowledge of it if it is true and even if Manafort has direct knowledge of a quid pro quo it may not be useful to a prosecution without corroborating evidence.

I don't believe evidence made public up to now is sufficient to strongly support the notion that Trump is in trouble.

However the cumulative risk associated with the foundation charges, the Zervos defamation law suit, the Stormy Daniels's lawsuits. the Karen MacDougal lawsuit, Elliot Broidy entanglements, possible Trump/Cohen mob entanglements, possible Trump/Cohen foreign entanglements, emolument type lawsuits, possible Trump/Manafort cooperation on Russia, obstruction of justice charges and probably other stuff certainly makes it seem that Trump is in serious trouble some place right now.

Even the Fox News 24/7 Trump shilling has taken a break on occasion. Is that Fox hedging their bets? Maybe letting a little truth in boosts their credibility to the point that they have a wider audience?

One last thought: It would have been fun to watch Hannity's head explode if Obama had a tenth of stuff like this going on.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Say, by the way, how is Mueller's case going against the "Russians"?



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...rder-protecting-evidence-in-russia-troll-case

D'OH!!!

I assume it never occurred to them that one of the defendants would appear and contest the charges, let alone mock them while doing so:

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Concord-June-8-Filing.pdf

see footnote 5

Literally everything written above is wrong.

While I appreciate people taking an interest in the subject, one quickly realizes that perhaps this is the first time one has considered the issues? Mueller is acting like McCarthy

The defendants are entitled to the information Mueller has.

Mueller and his team do not want to give it to them.

Mueller and his team are way over their skis and are going to have make a hard decision to dismiss the indictment.

"So"..... oy vey.

No it shows that the indictments were a silly stunt and Mueller is going to end up with egg on his face when he finally dismisses the indictment against Concord.

Take a gander for a bit more flavor.

https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2018/05/04/mueller-russia-interference-election-case-delay-570627

Let's see if your crystal ball was correct:

A U.S. District Court judge ruled on Friday that a Russian company charged with meddling in the 2016 U.S. presidential election is not entitled to review grand jury materials and gave the two sides 10 days to agree on rules for sharing evidence.

...

Friedrich ordered Mueller’s office and Concord to come up with an agreement by the end of Friday to begin the sharing of evidence - a process known as discovery - on less sensitive documents. The judge gave the two sides 10 days to hammer out a protective order governing all materials in discovery.

“We’ve got to get discovery going,” Friedrich said.

Linky.

Oh.

 

[The Big Dog]

Let's see if your crystal ball was correct:



Linky.

Oh.

I did not mention anything about the grand jury stuff (hell, not sure if I even knew that they were asking for it)

On the protective order motion (which I did discuss) she did not grant Mueller's motion, in fact all she did was kick the can down the road.

Oh.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I did not mention anything about the grand jury stuff (hell, not sure if I even knew that they were asking for it)

On the protective order motion (which I did discuss) she did not grant Mueller's motion, in fact all she did was kick the can down the road.

Oh.

I notice you did not reply to my post showing that, in the request itself, the defendants were authorized, and that the disagreement with the defense was not arguing against the protective order itself, but about how to authorize others and the codefendants.

And now the judge is telling them to continue working on what you claim is McCarthyite denying of evidence. Checks out.

 

[The Big Dog]

I notice you did not reply to my post showing that, in the request itself, the defendants were authorized, and that the disagreement with the defense was not arguing against the protective order itself, but about how to authorize others and the codefendants.

And now the judge is telling them to continue working on what you claim is McCarthyite denying of evidence. Checks out.

Oh I didn't respond to the post? Well it was just copy pasta of arguments from Mueller's arguments and thus a waste of time. I posted the defendants response which nuked it from orbit, y'all get a chance to read that?

And yes, the judge did not grant Mueller's motion and just kicked the can down the road.

 

[acbytesla]

Paul Manafort will spend at least 4 months in jail as his trial doesn't start until September. He is presently facing 24 criminal charges that could easily mean that if found guilty he will never see the light of day again. It is also my understanding that the Feds actually have gone easy on Manafort and that many charges weren't made which may have been saved so they can be filed in State Court preventing Trump from pardoning his way out of trouble.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Trump Tweets

"Wow, what a tough sentence for Paul Manafort, who has represented Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole and many other top political people and campaigns. Didn’t know Manafort was the head of the Mob. What about Comey and Crooked Hillary and all of the others? Very unfair!"

He was not sentenced. The judge revoked his bail, sending him to jail before trial, because he allegedly committed more crimes while on house arrest.

 

[Andy_Ross]

trump tweets

"FBI Agent Peter Strzok, who headed the Clinton & Russia investigations, texted to his lover Lisa Page, in the IG Report, that “we’ll stop” candidate Trump from becoming President. Doesn’t get any lower than that!"

"The IG Report is a total disaster for Comey, his minions and sadly, the FBI. Comey will now officially go down as the worst leader, by far, in the history of the FBI. I did a great service to the people in firing him. Good Instincts. Christopher Wray will bring it proudly back!"

"I’ve had to beat 17 very talented people including the Bush Dynasty, then I had to beat the Clinton Dynasty, and now I have to beat a phony Witch Hunt and all of the dishonest people covered in the IG Report...and never forget the Fake News Media. It never ends!"

 

[Lambchops]

The stupid... It burns!

 

[davefoc]

Paul Manafort will spend at least 4 months in jail as his trial doesn't start until September. He is presently facing 24 criminal charges that could easily mean that if found guilty he will never see the light of day again. It is also my understanding that the Feds actually have gone easy on Manafort and that many charges weren't made which may have been saved so they can be filed in State Court preventing Trump from pardoning his way out of trouble.

The State of New York has a parallel investigation underway. This seems to be a bit tricky though. If Manafort was charged with some of the crimes where there is overlap between the feds and the state by the feds could the state bring charges if Manafort was pardoned? At some point I think jeopardy would attach and the proscription of double jeopardy might prevent prosecution by the state? Perhaps Mueller is specifically avoiding this by not charging some crimes that the state could charge. Could the feds, the state and Manafort agree to a deal where he avoided state prosecution unless he was pardoned?

ETA: Giuliani dangled the possibility of pardons today. If Trump did that he would be guilty of obstruction of justice by most people's standards, perhaps even Dershowitz's . But when his lawyer does it, it's OK? It may be a subject for another thread but is having a corrupt, stupid buffoon as your spokesman/fake attorney really a winning strategy for Trump?

One thing that seems likely, Trump may not be willing to pardon anybody before the midterm elections for political reasons and if the Democrats take control after the midterm elections they could make stuff really hard on Trump if he runs around pardoning people that might testify against him. A lot depends on the midterm elections. Right now the Republican Party is the Party of Trump and fealty is a requirement, but that could change if the Republicans do very poorly in the mid terms. I think they might do better than expected though, we'll see.

 

[paulhutch]

The State of New York has a parallel investigation underway. This seems to be a bit tricky though. If Manafort was charged with some of the crimes where there is overlap between the feds and the state by the feds could the state bring charges if Manafort was pardoned? At some point I think jeopardy would attach and the proscription of double jeopardy might prevent prosecution by the state?

With the usual caveat of IANAL.

AFAIK their is a total exemption to the double jeopardy ban of the 5th amendment for federal vs. state prosecution. Also I believe jeopardy does not apply after a pardon, only after an acquittal, conviction or mistrial.

 

[Stacko]

Manafort seems very dedicated to committing crimes or desperate:

"...no conditions that would assure that the defendant will comply with the most fundamental condition of release under the Bail Reform Act: that he not commit a ... crime"

 

[timhau]

ETA: Giuliani dangled the possibility of pardons today. If Trump did that he would be guilty of obstruction of justice by most people's standards, perhaps even Dershowitz's . But when his lawyer does it, it's OK? It may be a subject for another thread but is having a corrupt, stupid buffoon as your spokesman/fake attorney really a winning strategy for Trump?

The real strategy is to build a personality cult. After that, there are only winning strategies. I'm amazed at how many people are going along with this.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Oh I didn't respond to the post? Well it was just copy pasta of arguments from Mueller's arguments and thus a waste of time.

Amazing.