Should the Baltic Germans be compensated by Russia?

[Garrison]

The thrust holds. They were removed by Hitler ahead of Operation Barbarossa, and then the remainder by Stalin.

They never got their land back, nor adequate recompense for the loss of their home of >700 years.

95% of which was taken by the Baltic Republics long before WWII, a fact you seem incapable of acknowledging.

 

[ddt]

Yes, they were a ruling class but so are the titled English, French, Swedish, etc.

French nobility??? You may have heard of this little spat called the French Revolution. It expropriated their possessions, stripped them of their titles and (political) privileges, and made many of them also part with their heads.

For the rest, the present tense in that sentence is ridiculous.

Truth is, the House of Lords is made up of peers of the realm (the titled mob, whom you despise) who are not subject to democratic election. Likewise, the army, the monarchy and the police are not governed by democracy.

Nowadays, only 90 members of the Lords are hereditary peers, on a total of (now) 779 seats. Apart from them and the 26 Spiritual Lords, all members of the Lords are life peers who have been appointed by the Monarch on suggestion of the PM, typically due to their past merit to country and/or party. The hereditary peers are a relic of history, due to British/English fondness of tradition, and such an institution is not found elsewhere in the democratic first world.

 

[ddt]

It was only some of it. Stalin expropriated the remainder.

OK, fair enough, most was removed

So you already moved from "some" to "most". But I didn't ask for vague words, I asked for an actual calculation. Show us the math what percentage that "most" was that the Latvian and Estonian governments expropriated in 1918-1920.

before Stalin came along.

And stop lying. It was Hitler's idea to have the Baltic Germans relocated to the Wartheland. If anywhere, they should complain with the German government that they gave them property that was not theirs to give.

 

[ddt]

You can't get away with this. I researched the issue of Finnish supposed atrocities in great detail, seeking out original accounts as of the time from deep within the British Library archives.

Virtually all the claims of cruelty at the Finnish POW camps in Karelia were by Communist Soviets, their usual style of propaganda and masters at spin. The truth is, yes, some camp guards were brutal. However, most of the Soviet POW who died did so because of infectious diseases, rampant in such camps, or because they tried to abscond. The number killed due to murder was probably less than 5K in all, which is 5K too many, but compare and contrast the figures for Stalin and Hitler's abominable concentration camps and appalling death marches. British POWs from Dunkirk were fed poisonous ground acorn, starved and made to go on death marches of many miles after the Allied Forces victory.

Look at the greater evil. Had Stalin succeeded in over-running Finland, or the Red rising in Finland succeeded, we, too, would have had our lands expropriated. Communism would then have spread into Sweden, Norway and ultimately Germany (the Baltic States and Poland having succumbed) and down to Italy, which had a strong communist counter movement against their Black Shirts.

Under your politics of envy, all land would belong to the state, as happened in Livonia, Kurland, and surrounding areas.

And Karelia did belong to Finland, via the Swedish Empire, of which it was a part, from circa 1560 - 1720, as did the the areas along the Baltic coastline. How do you think the Baltic German nobility found their way into Finland during that era?

Stop lying.

I'm talking about East Karelia, which has been part of Novgorod/Muscovy/Russia at least since the Treaty of Nöteborg in 1323. It was not part of Sweden when Finland became a Russian duchy in 1808, and it was not part of Finland when it became independent in 1918. It was conquered by Finland 1941-1944 during the Continuation war, and the Russian inhabitants - not POW - were interned in concentration camps with a mortality rate of around 30%.

So, stop lying that Finland never went beyond the borders before the Winter War during the Continuation War. And stop speaking about POW when I'm discussing civilian internees.

 

[ddt]

The thrust holds. They were removed by Hitler ahead of Operation Barbarossa,

No, after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the invasion of Poland.

 

[ddt]

Incidentally, feudalism was abolished by Russia in 1836 (under whom the Baltic states in question were governed from 1721 to about 1917). So, they weren't feudal lords, but common or garden landowners, no different from the landowning class in the UK or elsewhere.

Another fail.

The abolition of serfdom in the Baltics came a bit earlier, but it came with a snag:

In 1816, 1817, and 1819 serfdom was abolished in Estland, Courland, and Livonia respectively.[20] However all the land stayed in noble hands and labor rent lasted till 1868. It was replaced with landless laborers and sharecropping (halbkörner). Landless workers had to ask permission to leave an estate.

Being bound to the estate is the core property of serfdom. So, after this "abolition", the formerly de-jure serfs were still landless and thus still bound to the estate, and thus still de-facto serfs.

The Russia-wide abolition of serfdom only occurred in 1861. The year 1836 doesn't figure in the story, you seem to have wholly invented that year.

 

[ddt]

You can't get away with this. I researched the issue of Finnish supposed atrocities in great detail, seeking out original accounts as of the time from deep within the British Library archives.

I am really dumbfounded why you keep trotting out these grandiose claims that you "researched" something. You post an OP with obvious contradictions to the source you cite. You refuse to do a simple calculation even though it's your everyday's job. The share of even simple facts you claim is lower than the share of their lands the Baltic Germans got to keep after independence of the Baltic republics.

As I said in the "100 years Finland" thread, a bit more bluntly than Garrison did above, if you did any research at all, it seems to have been supervised by Willis Carto. And that also applies to this thread, because, again, you make apologetics for Hitler's actions.

 

[ddt]

And anyway, I don't see the problem. Per the wiki article in the OP:

In spring of 1918 Baltic Germans announced restoration of independent Duchy of Courland and Semigallia and pursued plans for uniting it with the Kingdom of Prussia. On April 12, 1918 Baltic German representatives from all Baltic provinces met in Riga and called on the German Emperor to annex Baltic lands.

So, in 1918 the Baltic-German nobility wanted to live in Germany. In 1945, they got their wish. What really is the problem?

 

[Vixen]

Stop lying.

I'm talking about East Karelia, which has been part of Novgorod/Muscovy/Russia at least since the Treaty of Nöteborg in 1323. It was not part of Sweden when Finland became a Russian duchy in 1808, and it was not part of Finland when it became independent in 1918. It was conquered by Finland 1941-1944 during the Continuation war, and the Russian inhabitants - not POW - were interned in concentration camps with a mortality rate of around 30%.

So, stop lying that Finland never went beyond the borders before the Winter War during the Continuation War. And stop speaking about POW when I'm discussing civilian internees.

Stop lying. Finland became independent in 1917.

From having been regularly overrun by swathes of Slavs over the centuries, it was only apposite that Finland should try to reclaim ancient Finnish homelands.

The mayors of the Karelian regions asked the Finns to rescue them from the Soviet yoke.

 

[Vixen]

And anyway, I don't see the problem. Per the wiki article in the OP:

So, in 1918 the Baltic-German nobility wanted to live in Germany. In 1945, they got their wish. What really is the problem?

No. In 1939 Germany made a secret pact with the Soviet Union to repatriate Baltic Germans so that the USSR could take over the Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania countries, which came into being in 1920. The Baltic Germans were not consulted. By 1944 the 'repatriation' was forcible. Those who refused to leave their homeland of over 700 years were sent to the Gulags by the Soviets.

How you can condone this treatment?

 

[Vixen]

I am really dumbfounded why you keep trotting out these grandiose claims that you "researched" something. You post an OP with obvious contradictions to the source you cite. You refuse to do a simple calculation even though it's your everyday's job. The share of even simple facts you claim is lower than the share of their lands the Baltic Germans got to keep after independence of the Baltic republics.

As I said in the "100 years Finland" thread, a bit more bluntly than Garrison did above, if you did any research at all, it seems to have been supervised by Willis Carto. And that also applies to this thread, because, again, you make apologetics for Hitler's actions.

What a disgraceful comment. I have nothing but repugnance and disgust for Hitler and his actions, and his supporters. I have never said anything in support of his regime.

Yad Vashem quotes exactly the same figures as me.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[ddt]

There's this little thing called democracy, perhaps you've heard of it? Quite popular in the above countries.

Vixen doesn't like democracy:

There was more to it than land. There were voting privileges and the right to be a member of the Landrat.

See, she complains that the Baltic-German nobility lost its political privileges.

 

[ddt]

Stop lying. Finland became independent in 1917.

No, Finland declared independence in 1917. Soviet Russia only recognized it on 4 January 1918.

From having been regularly overrun by swathes of Slavs over the centuries,

<citation required>

it was only apposite that Finland should try to reclaim ancient Finnish homelands.

Finland never having been an independent state before 1918, it's a bit tenuous to what "ancient Finnish homelands" are. What's your opinion on Kosovo?

Besides, Karelians are not Finns, they're a people of their own.

The mayors of the Karelian regions asked the Finns to rescue them from the Soviet yoke.

Yeah right. That's always the excuse of patriotic scoundrels with an expansionist agenda. I note the complete lack of citations for this claim.

 

[ddt]

What a disgraceful comment. I have nothing but repugnance and disgust for Hitler and his actions, and his supporters. I have never said anything in support of his regime.

You keep assigning blame on the relocation of the Baltic Germans primarily on Stalin, and when you mention Hitler, it's "he moved them out ahead of Barbarossa", as if he's moving them out of harm's way. Yes, your verbiage is quite apologetic of Hitler.

Yad Vashem quotes exactly the same figures as me.

What grandstanding. You say that as if you're the authority and not Yad Vashem.

Besides, you've repeatedly ignored and denied, when pressed multiple times, to acknowledge the figures Yad Vashem quotes on Polish, Belarus, Ukranian, and Russian victims of the Nazi regime.

 

[ddt]

No. In 1939 Germany made a secret pact with the Soviet Union to repatriate Baltic Germans so that the USSR could take over the Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania countries, which came into being in 1920. The Baltic Germans were not consulted. By 1944 the 'repatriation' was forcible.

Shall we look at (the translation of) the actual text of the confidential protocol annexed to the German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939:

The Government of the U.S.S.R. shall place no obstacles in the way of Reich nationals and other persons of German descent residing in the territories under its jurisdiction, if they desire to migrate to Germany or to the territories under German jurisdiction. It agrees that such removals shall be carried out by agents of the Government of the Reich in cooperation with the competent local authorities and that the property rights of the emigrants shall be protected. A corresponding obligation is assumed by the Government of the German Reich in respect to the persons of Ukrainian or White Russian descent residing in the territories under its jurisdiction.

There are several factual errors in your post:
1) the role of the Soviet Union was a passive one, not active one.
2) it was not a precondition for the USSR to take over the Baltic republics, the protocol applied as well to Germans living in the then-USSR.
3) relocation was not compulsory, it says literally "if they desire"
4) of course, the Baltic Germans didn't have to be consulted to be granted the right to go "Heim ins Reich".

Those who refused to leave their homeland of over 700 years were sent to the Gulags by the Soviets.

Some of those, not all. Why don't you quote some actual numbers? It's odd that you, as an accountant, haven't posted a single number in this thread. How do the balance and revenue sheets you prepare or check look like? Do they contain words like "a lot", "some", or, you know, actual figures?

How you can condone this treatment?

Where did I do that?

 

[Vixen]

No, Finland declared independence in 1917. Soviet Russia only recognized it on 4 January 1918.


<citation required>

Finland never having been an independent state before 1918, it's a bit tenuous to what "ancient Finnish homelands" are. What's your opinion on Kosovo?

Besides, Karelians are not Finns, they're a people of their own.


Yeah right. That's always the excuse of patriotic scoundrels with an expansionist agenda. I note the complete lack of citations for this claim.

Who cares when the Soviets recognised it. It is official. The date of independence is 6 Dec 1917, as commemorated every year.

from wiki:

Independence Day was first celebrated in 1917. However, during the first years of independence, 6 December in some parts of Finland was only a minor holiday compared to 16 May, the Whites' day of celebration for prevailing in the Finnish Civil War.
Date‎: ‎6 December

 

[Vixen]

No, Finland declared independence in 1917. Soviet Russia only recognized it on 4 January 1918.


<citation required>

Finland never having been an independent state before 1918, it's a bit tenuous to what "ancient Finnish homelands" are. What's your opinion on Kosovo?

Besides, Karelians are not Finns, they're a people of their own.


Yeah right. That's always the excuse of patriotic scoundrels with an expansionist agenda. I note the complete lack of citations for this claim.

You're kidding right? You are unaware of just how many times the Russians have invaded Finland?

Part list here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_between_Russia_and_Sweden

 

[Vixen]

Shall we look at (the translation of) the actual text of the confidential protocol annexed to the German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939:

There are several factual errors in your post:
1) the role of the Soviet Union was a passive one, not active one.
2) it was not a precondition for the USSR to take over the Baltic republics, the protocol applied as well to Germans living in the then-USSR.
3) relocation was not compulsory, it says literally "if they desire"
4) of course, the Baltic Germans didn't have to be consulted to be granted the right to go "Heim ins Reich".


Some of those, not all. Why don't you quote some actual numbers? It's odd that you, as an accountant, haven't posted a single number in this thread. How do the balance and revenue sheets you prepare or check look like? Do they contain words like "a lot", "some", or, you know, actual figures?


Where did I do that?

Whilst officially, it was indeed a voluntary repatriation, in reality, when your compatriots are being executed and carted off to the Gulag, or you are having your property confiscated by the state with no recompense, I would say that was forceful removal.

 

[ddt]

Who cares when the Soviets recognised it.

Apparently, everybody did. From wiki:

Svinhufvud immediately asked Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany and France to recognise Finland's independence. The West, however, said they would wait until the former ruler, Russia, recognised the declaration. They told Svinhufvud to talk to Lenin's Bolshevik Government.

And so he did, and when the Bolsheviks recognized it, those countries followed suit.

 

[ddt]

You're kidding right? You are unaware of just how many times the Russians have invaded Finland?

Part list here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_between_Russia_and_Sweden

And in how many of those wars did Russia invade Finland? You're referring to a list where at least 90% of the listed items simply do not apply.

Besides that, a war does not automatically mean the ethnic makeup of the place changed.