Should the Baltic Germans be compensated by Russia?

[Vixen]

We have the legislation from Estonia and Latvia dating from the 1920s expropriating the estates and we have the date that the USSR reabsorbed those same nations (1940).

What are you basing your doubt on?

It was only some of it. Stalin expropriated the remainder.

It is quite wrong to say the Baltic Germans had no land, buildings or privileges as of the time Stalin came along.

ETA:

At the same time, [post 1917] the German minourities realised that Baltic independence would strip the wealthy Baltic German upper class of their power. After Germany quit World War I, the Baltic Germans therefore lost their protection from both the Russians and from Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian nationalists. Now liberated from foreign occupation, the Baltic nations fully declared independence. In response, many among the Baltic German elite declared that the United Baltic Duchy and the Duchy of Kurland and Semigallia had full sovereignty over all 3 Baltic republics. The secessionist governments set up paramilitary militias (the baltische Landswehr) with support from former German soldiers (Freikorps) who now had no war to fight. Neither of these would-be nations called for official discrimination and welcomed Baltic peoples as citizens. The government's council included Latvians, Estonians, and Baltic Germans.

<snip>

In the regions of the Baltic states that were briefly occupied by Soviet troops during the Baltic Wars of Independence after 1918, the Bolshevik governments particularly targeted the Baltic German minourities because of their historic role as the economic elite and "bourgeoisie." Using emergency decrees, the brief socialist regimes targeting most Baltic Germans for arrest, executions (although rare), or deportation to the Soviet frontier in Central Asia in cooperation with the emerging Soviet Union. All wealthy families were subject to arrest without trial (Eestiajalugu). Tthese ephemeral socialist regimes collapsed along with the eventual Soviet defeat.

http://expelledgermans.org/balticgermans.htm

So, under the protection of the Peter the Great - from 1721- who admired the nobility system based on the Swedish charter and integrated it into the Russian Imperialist system, which was based more on set ranks. Thus, the Baltic Germans continued to enjoy their privileges until circa 1836 when the then Czar (Nicholas_?) began to 'russify things'. The tensions caused led to a lot of unrest, especially in Finland, which was a Grand Duchy of Russia from 1809 - 1917. Things came to a head during 1905-1917 culiminating in WWI and the Bolshevik uprising.

Ahead of Operation Barbarossa, 1941, Hitler made plans to move the Baltic Germans out of the Baltic area and as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, gave up their rights to the land.

In the Soviet counter occupation the remaining Baltic Germans were attacked as the enemy bourgeoisie and these received zero compensation, together with being deported to Siberia or being summarily executed. Under the communist regime, all private land was compulsorily handed over to the Soviets.

The Baltic Germans were not responsible for their fate, nor for the fact of dispossessing Poles. You could say they were betrayed by Hitler and Stalin.

 

[kookbreaker]

Tons of Junkers lost their holdings when Bismarck united Germany. No recompense. Been only a couple score years longer.

Plenty of Junkers tried to get their East German land back after reunification. German courts said nope.

 

[Vixen]

Tons of Junkers lost their holdings when Bismarck united Germany. No recompense. Been only a couple score years longer.

Plenty of Junkers tried to get their East German land back after reunification. German courts said nope.

The Junkers were German nationals. The Baltic Germans are not. In effect, they are being punished along with the Third Reich German nationals.

But why? At least Germany has retained its land and its culture, even if things were tough for a while.

 

[Craig B]

Not really a claim for ethnic cleansing, more like bourgeois cleansing.

It was the Baltic Germans' land and culture for nigh on 800 years, they have a claim to it. You could call it their 'Isreal'.

That is a comparison that I don't think Zionists would approve, and they would be right. The Baltic barons established themselves as a feudal ruling class, while the Zionists' evident intent is to replace all non Jews by Jews in this "homeland", in all social classes, as has been done in the Golan,

Nor do I think the Zionists, as Jews, will appreciate being compared with an order of crusading knights, who committed genocide against the Old Prussian indigenes because they were not Christian.

The legitimate claim that the Baltic Germans might promote in former East Prussia is to live there on the same footing as other residents, not to be feudal rulers. That is the most that any ethnic group may rightly claim in a region of such diversity.

 

[Vixen]

That is a comparison that I don't think Zionists would approve, and they would be right. The Baltic barons established themselves as a feudal ruling class, while the Zionists' evident intent is to replace all non Jews by Jews in this "homeland", in all social classes, as has been done in the Golan,

Nor do I think the Zionists, as Jews, will appreciate being compared with an order of crusading knights, who committed genocide against the Old Prussian indigenes because they were not Christian.

The legitimate claim that the Baltic Germans might promote in former East Prussia is to live there on the same footing as other residents, not to be feudal rulers. That is the most that any ethnic group may rightly claim in a region of such diversity.

You do use emotive language. Firstly AIUI the Teutonic Order came to a demise with the onset of Lutheranism (protestant reform). This was a religious upheaval throughout Europe and cannot be blamed on the Baltic Germans.

Yes, feudalism is archaic, obsolete and wrong, so nobody is asking to bring that back.

Just give them back the land and the estates taken away from them.

 

[ddt]

It was only some of it. Stalin expropriated the remainder.

You can keep yelling "it was only some of it", but that's an outright lie. From that wiki page you cited yourself:

On October 10, 1919 Estonian parliament expropriated 1,065 estates (96.6% of all estates). March 1, 1926 law set the compensation to the former owners of arable land at about 3% of its market value and no compensation at all for the forests. This almost instantly bankrupted German noble class, even if they were allowed to keep some 50 ha of their lands.[17]

96.6% is not "some", that is "nearly all". For Latvia we have to do a small calculation, which you, as an accountant, apparently are unable to do:

At the start of independence Baltic Germans owned 58% of land in Estonia and 48% in Latvia. [...]
On September 16, 1920 Constitutional Assembly of Latvia nationalized 1,300 estates with 3.7 million hectares of land. Former German owners were allowed to keep 50 ha of land and farm equipment. In 1924, Saeima decided that no compensation will be paid to former owners. In 1929, Saeima voted that veterans of the Baltische Landeswehr cannot receive any land.[18]

The area of Latvia is 64,598 sqkm, that is, 6,459,800 ha. The nationalized area of land thus constituted 57% of the land in Latvia. That's actually more than all the German-held land.

 

[kookbreaker]

The thing about nobility:

You get a lot of power compared to the average citizen. You get more money, you get land, you get all sorts of benefits.

The drawback? It can be taken away from you at any point, for almost any reason.

Monarch thinks you looked at him funny? Estates stripped, titles removed.

Mismanage your estate? Your land is almost worthless and your descendants will be dirt farmers like the nearby serfs.

Resisting the will of other nobles? Pack your bags and catch the next ship to America buddy.

Political revolution that your antics helped forment? Be glad if losing all your land is all that happens.

Can’t see why I should be sympathetic. With the title comes the risk. CEOs give that excuse all the time when justifying their immense salaries. Why should I be concerned that it actually applies once in a while?

 

[ddt]

The Junkers were German nationals. The Baltic Germans are not. In effect, they are being punished along with the Third Reich German nationals.

No, they're not. They were punished for being an upper class that kept a feudal system going and exploited the native population.

Oh, and yes they were German nationals in the sense that they were entitled to German citizenship. That was also were their allegiance lay: in 1918, they tried to seize power in the Baltics with the ultimate aim that the Baltics became part of Germany.

And in that perspective, I don't see why that Latvians and Estonians, and for that matter anyone else, should feel sorry for their plight.

 

[Vixen]

You can keep yelling "it was only some of it", but that's an outright lie. From that wiki page you cited yourself:

96.6% is not "some", that is "nearly all". For Latvia we have to do a small calculation, which you, as an accountant, apparently are unable to do:

The area of Latvia is 64,598 sqkm, that is, 6,459,800 ha. The nationalized area of land thus constituted 57% of the land in Latvia. That's actually more than all the German-held land.

Do you know how large 50 ha is? It's 124 acres (or, 62 football pitches). Each.

 

[Vixen]

The thing about nobility:

You get a lot of power compared to the average citizen. You get more money, you get land, you get all sorts of benefits.

The drawback? It can be taken away from you at any point, for almost any reason.

Monarch thinks you looked at him funny? Estates stripped, titles removed.

Mismanage your estate? Your land is almost worthless and your descendants will be dirt farmers like the nearby serfs.

Resisting the will of other nobles? Pack your bags and catch the next ship to America buddy.

Political revolution that your antics helped forment? Be glad if losing all your land is all that happens.

Can’t see why I should be sympathetic. With the title comes the risk. CEOs give that excuse all the time when justifying their immense salaries. Why should I be concerned that it actually applies once in a while?

This is land awarded for military honours, or through inheritance.

Would you be happy to have your inheritance taken away?

These were brave soldiers who fought for their country. In the medieval ages, a battle could go either way.

 

[Vixen]

No, they're not. They were punished for being an upper class that kept a feudal system going and exploited the native population.

Oh, and yes they were German nationals in the sense that they were entitled to German citizenship. That was also were their allegiance lay: in 1918, they tried to seize power in the Baltics with the ultimate aim that the Baltics became part of Germany.

And in that perspective, I don't see why that Latvians and Estonians, and for that matter anyone else, should feel sorry for their plight.

Feudalism is an economic anachronism and has died a natural death, like slavery.

So you believe in the seizure of property to 'distribute to the poor'?

So people who bring high civilisation to a country should pretend to be semi-literate country bumpkins...?

 

[kookbreaker]

This is land awarded for military honours, or through inheritance.

Would you be happy to have your inheritance taken away?

These were brave soldiers who fought for their country. In the medieval ages, a battle could go either way.

My inheritance was not developed by 30-times-great grandparent glory hounds seeking battle against barely armed peasants, and enslaving them for generations.

Plenty of nobles throughout history have lost their titles for a multitude of reasons. Most of those reasons probably seemed unfair. Too bad. With the title comes the risk.

They took it by the sword, can't say I'm surprised they lost it by the sword...albeit a much less deadly sword.

Again, no sympathy.

 

[ddt]

Do you know how large 50 ha is? It's 124 acres (or, 62 football pitches). Each.

The same paras in that wiki article say that in Estonia 1,065 estates were expropriated and in Latvia 1,300 estates. Now with the figures there, calculate how much those 50 ha per estate is as percentage of the total land that was owned by the German nobility. Show us for once that you can do highschool math.

Oh, and I'm from the continent, it's quite silly for you to convert hectares to acres.

 

[ddt]

Feudalism is an economic anachronism and has died a natural death, like slavery.

So you believe in the seizure of property to 'distribute to the poor'?

So people who bring high civilisation to a country should pretend to be semi-literate country bumpkins...?

Your racism is shining through.

And yes, a century ago land reform and land redistribution was very much a way to address excessive wealth inequities.

 

[Craig B]

Yes, feudalism is archaic, obsolete and wrong, so nobody is asking to bring that back.

Just give them back the land and the estates taken away from them.

Eh, um, well. If feudalism is wrong, then taking feudal estates away is right, isn't it. You're saying the equivalent of "slavery is wrong; all that the plantation owners want from the federal government is to get their labourers back, who were taken away in 1863."

But of course your post is obviously jocular, and I'm doing your sense of humour an injustice by taking it seriously.

 

[sackett]

Wo auch immer wir stehen, ist Deutschland!

Und Gott mit uns! Oder mit Vixen!

 

[ddt]

But of course your post is obviously jocular, and I'm doing your sense of humour an injustice by taking it seriously.

A couple of days ago I read that Canadian white supremacist Lauren Southern had taken up the mantle of the white South-African farmers. I thought that there was nothing more stupid in today's world than hitch your wagon to the cause of the guys who invented Apartheid. But Vixen has topped it with this inane cause.

I don't think she's jocular in this thread. She just has a hard-on for piling all "evil" in the world on Stalin.

I say yes, but let them then compensate in return the ethnic Poles and Jews that they replaced when they moved to Poland.

Vixen denies that the Nazis ever murdered ethnic Poles. Because, you know, Stalin must have murdered more people than Hitler so it's most convenient to deny roughly half of the civilian murders by the Nazi regime.

 

[Garrison]

It was only some of it. Stalin expropriated the remainder.

It is quite wrong to say the Baltic Germans had no land, buildings or privileges as of the time Stalin came along.

No what is wrong is you continuing to repeat the same false claim. The Baltic Germans privileges had been removed, and all but a tiny fraction of their land had been seized, by the independent Baltic nations decades before the USSR invaded and BTW current day Russia is not the USSR.

 

[dudalb]

A couple of days ago I read that Canadian white supremacist Lauren Southern had taken up the mantle of the white South-African farmers. I thought that there was nothing more stupid in today's world than hitch your wagon to the cause of the guys who invented Apartheid. But Vixen has topped it with this inane cause.

I don't think she's jocular in this thread. She just has a hard-on for piling all "evil" in the world on Stalin.


Vixen denies that the Nazis ever murdered ethnic Poles. Because, you know, Stalin must have murdered more people than Hitler so it's most convenient to deny roughly half of the civilian murders by the Nazi regime.

SO Vixen never heard of what Henirich Himmler and his "General Plan East"?
Nice.
Poland probably suffered more then any other country in World War 2. It was raped and brutalized by both Hitler and Stalin. Hitler killed a lot more Poles, but Stalin got his share also.

 

[Craig B]

Your racism is shining through.

And yes, a century ago land reform and land redistribution was very much a way to address excessive wealth inequities.

A century ago? If only ... but in Scotland we were somewhat belated in taking action against feudalism.

The Act [Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Act 2000] officially brought to an end annual feu duties, a vestige of feudal land tenure, on 28 November 2004 ... After that date, the former vassal of an estate was the sole owner of the land, and the former superior's rights were extinguished. For a further two years, the superior had the option of claiming compensation; this was fixed at a single payment of a size that, when invested at an annual rate of 2.5%, it would yield interest equal to the former feu duty. Because inflation had eroded the value of duties, which had been fixed many years before, this payment was in most cases extremely small compared with the current value of the land.​

Yes, you read it correctly: 2004.