Ed Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday

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Wait!!! Cain is British?

This changes everything.

Don't think he is, although he did set me wondering if John Cleese still lived in LA (he doesn't apparently).

Biting, even heavy, sarcasm is a reasonable response to current events imo.

Not to say that should be the only response to the Russian interference in your election process and the Trump clan's venal behaviour, which may have included involvement in said interference.
 
I can only speak for myself but I can say that I have both a deep-seated and rabid hatred of Trump and I'm also very concerned about Russia in the bigger picture. In fact, it is easy for me to imagine a scenario where the Russians favor a Democrat (an isolationist, a NATO skeptic, a protectionist) over a Republican and play their dirty tricks to help elect the dems instead. I see them as a existential threat to our democracy regardless of which side they favor.

That's a perfectly fair and reasonable view to hold. I appreciate the consideration of the bigger picture :)
 
You know, some of us remember when the Russians were not our close allies who we looked up to. Some of us who remember this are more than a bit concerned that the party of Reagan is not bothered by Russian interference with our democratic process. There was a time, not so long ago, when this would have caused Republicans to freak the hell out. I would say that is the bigger partisan swing.

Oh riiight. Who cares they bombarded social media with bots and trolls spreading fake news intended specifically to amplify discord in this country, and to effect the election giving us this incompetent criminal enterprise in the WH.

No, that's not a reason to care about Russia. :rolleyes:

There are many more reasons but if you had been paying attention to facts instead of right wing talking points you'd already know that. Given you posted the above, I imagine you aren't willing to consider the real-reality. No sense in my going on with the rest of the reasons to be concerned about Russia.

I don't speak for liberals, but this is surely not my sole concern.

For sure, political self-interest is perpetually rampant. Notwithstanding, to assert that liberals don't actually care that the foundation of US democracy is under assault from a hostile power is absurd beyond belief. Brushes that are that fantastically broad should be reserved for tarring 8 lane freeways.

Some people are so wed to their middle-ground high horse that they're completely divorced from reality.

I love how all of you jumping at the opportunity to insist that I'm wrong seem to have stopped reading as soon as I said anything bad about liberals. Would it have helped if I'd led off with my criticism of conservatives instead? Do you think that might have made it easier to get past the impulse for defensiveness? If that would have been more effective, I'll make sure to try employing that technique in the future when I wish to complain about the absurd and toxic level of partisanship in the US right now.
 
Pointing out facts relevant to the discussion is not "well-poisoning".

Uh... okay... which parts of this are "facts"?
There are many more reasons but if you had been paying attention to facts instead of right wing talking points you'd already know that. Given you posted the above, I imagine you aren't willing to consider the real-reality. No sense in my going on with the rest of the reasons to be concerned about Russia.

Because that right there, as highlighted, is 100% well poisoning.
 
Surely, one can be concerned with Russian activities as well as the Trump campaign and administration's complicity.

If Trump and co. are not involved in any way, the Russian story is still huge news. Given the Trump Tower meeting, the campaign was at least mighty willing to accept help from the Russian government and that's big news too.

Of course, one can. It would be very refreshing to have a discussion on ISF that focused on the behavior of Russia that doesn't immediately shift focus to the presumption of collusion by Trump. So far, that's not something I've seen.
 
I love how all of you jumping at the opportunity to insist that I'm wrong seem to have stopped reading as soon as I said anything bad about liberals. Would it have helped if I'd led off with my criticism of conservatives instead? Do you think that might have made it easier to get past the impulse for defensiveness? If that would have been more effective, I'll make sure to try employing that technique in the future when I wish to complain about the absurd and toxic level of partisanship in the US right now.
I am not a liberal, hence my refusal to speak for them.

That said, I don't see the liberal tendency you suggest. Democrats are concerned about Russian interference, whether Trump was an accomplice or not, by and large. Decent conservatives are similarly concerned. There are a large number of indecent "conservatives" in the House, but not so many in the Senate.

ETA: I am not a liberal, but I am decidedly opposed to Trump.
 
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I am not a liberal, hence my refusal to speak for them.
Fair enough, and I apologize for making assumptions.

That said, I don't see the liberal tendency you suggest. Democrats are concerned about Russian interference, whether Trump was an accomplice or not, by and large. Decent conservatives are similarly concerned. There are a large number of indecent "conservatives" in the House, but not so many in the Senate.
One would hope this to be the case... but I can't seem to locate a discussion about Russian interference that addresses that issue as anything other than a stick with which to oust Trump. All the mentions of Russia's behavior are presented as if they are evidence of Trump's collusion and misbehavior... not as a discussion of Russia's actions by themselves.

ETA: I am not a liberal, but I am decidedly opposed to Trump.
**fistbump**
 
Uh... okay... which parts of this are "facts"?


Probably the part right before the part you quoted. The part which you so carefully excised from your quote. The part which itemized some of the facts referenced in your quote.

Because that right there, as highlighted, is 100% well poisoning.


No. It really isn't.

'Quoting out of context', that's the term you're looking for. Because that's what you tried to do.

You know, that's a lot more difficult to pass off when links to the totality of the post you are quoting parts of are embedded right there in your quote.

Just sayin'.
 
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<snip>

One would hope this to be the case... but I can't seem to locate a discussion about Russian interference that addresses that issue as anything other than a stick with which to oust Trump.


Perhaps you aren't looking very hard.

Or just are preferring to interpret what you do find in the light you choose.

All the mentions of Russia's behavior are presented as if they are evidence of Trump's collusion and misbehavior... not as a discussion of Russia's actions by themselves.

<snip>


This has become the new (old) apologist distraction.

It isn't anything the Russians have done or any possible involvement by Trump or any of his crew that are important.

All that should be discounted ... or preferably, ignored ... because people are only using it to be meanies to Trump.
 
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'Quoting out of context', that's the term you're looking for. Because that's what you tried to do.
The context doesn't make it any less well poisoning.

You know, that's a lot more difficult to pass off when links to the totality of the post you are quoting parts of are embedded right there in your quote.
The rest of the quote wasn't well poisoning. It was snarky and sarcastic, but it wasn't well poisoning. And including it doesn't change the nature of the part to which I took exception.
 
This has become the new (old) apologist distraction.

It isn't anything the Russians have done or any possible involvement by Trump or any of his crew that are important.

All that should be discounted ... or preferably, ignored ... because people are only using it to be meanies to Trump.

You have really failed to understand my point entirely.
 
You have really failed to understand my point entirely.
Or you failed to explain it properly. Just like you said, some people jump to accusing others rather than seeing their own faults. Like how Democrats are using Russia as a stick to oust Trump instead of focusing on... What exactly?

You seem to bounce around in your arguments a lot. Everything with regards to Russia seems to be oddly linked to Trump, yet you're implying people shouldn't make that connection because.... I'm not really *********** sure honestly. We can't discuss Russia and not discuss Trump. He's at the center of it. They meddled in the election to get him elected. Russia funds went through the NRA to help him. Documents were hacked and leaked to hurt Hillary, not him.

This "middle of the road" **** is seriously adorable when anyone pulls it. Really shows that, "I'm a skeptic" personality.

If you haven't made up your mind then why are you participating? Just to tell everyone else about how you haven't formed a conclusion. Neat, I'll add that to my list of "things that do nothing to further the conversation". It's a growing list.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 
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That’s because they made it all about him. It’s a hoax designed to get him. What the Russians did is a joke, it didn’t sway the election. It’s been turned into get Trump.

Those darned Democrats! They're awful!


(Psssttt......Vlad.......did I make that sound convincing?)
 
One would hope this to be the case... but I can't seem to locate a discussion about Russian interference that addresses that issue as anything other than a stick with which to oust Trump. All the mentions of Russia's behavior are presented as if they are evidence of Trump's collusion and misbehavior... not as a discussion of Russia's actions by themselves.
It's a more difficult issue, one for which folks on a general purpose discussion board are unlikely to have a firm strategy or response.

With few exceptions (mostly among our most pro-Trump members), we may take for granted that folks here find it appalling that Russia is interfering with our and others' elections. It's a terrible fact. It's not clear how to prevent this interference.

If Trump is actively involved, it's easier. Remove him from office one way or the other. Hence, it's an easier subject for a discussion of the sort we have here.

(NOTE: I'm not necessarily advocating for impeachment except in the case that undeniable evidence of treason is presented. The long term effects after removing Trump from office might be worse than allowing him to stay in office. Or maybe not. I really am on the fence there.)
 
I love how all of you jumping at the opportunity to insist that I'm wrong seem to have stopped reading as soon as I said anything bad about liberals.
Self-serving nonsense.

Would it have helped if I'd led off with my criticism of conservatives instead?
No.

Do you think that might have made it easier to get past the impulse for defensiveness?
I reject the premise.

If that would have been more effective, I'll make sure to try employing that technique in the future when I wish to complain about the absurd and toxic level of partisanship in the US right now.
More middle-ground posturing, facts be damned. This has been a recurring theme since the Trump+Russia scandal developed. You never did clean-up the nonsense you repeatedly foisted about "ordinary Russians" and even "ordinary Americans of Russian descent" being wrongly scandalized. As ridiculous as that was N months ago, it's a flat out joke now. Have the constant revelations somehow escaped notice from your high-horse vantage?
 
A two-paragraph, well-argued post? Rather than a snarky one-liner that inevitably confuses a poster or two?

Who are you and what have you done with Cain?

It's not that he has gone un-snarky, it is that his regular snark is just not up to satirizing the current Washington weirdness.
No offense to Cain, I know he is trying.
 
It is my opinion that the only reason Liberals care about Russian interference is because it's a lever with which to break Trump. If it can't be used to bring down the evil orange overlord, I believe that liberals in general will lose interest. Unless it can be used to demonstrate the lack of ethics and loyalty of conservatives, it's of no import to them. Conservatives only care about Russia because it's being used as a lever against Trump. If there is no direct link found between Russian interference and Trump, I believe conservatives will lose interest. Unless it can be used to demonstrate that liberals are involved in a witch hunt, it's of no import to them.

So basically, in my opinion, the only reason that *most* people care about Russian interference is because of either a deep-seated and irrational reverence of Trump, or a deep-seated and rabid hatred of Trump. Very few people actually seem to care about the actions of Russia on its own merits and as a separate issue.

You might be right except for that one pesky fact that the Russian interference is grossly illegal, and most people care about things like breaking the law.
Oh, and the other pesky fact that Trump has demonstrated gross incompetence at Presidenting.
And that he has filled his cabinet with a bunch of swamp-dwelling incompetents, grifters, and partisan hacks.
Rabid or irrational have anything to do with these facts.

Now, Trump being a disgusting pig of a human being probably does play into rabid hatred and irrational reverence. But this is a separate issue.
 
It's not that he has gone un-snarky, it is that his regular snark is just not up to satirizing the current Washington weirdness.
No offense to Cain, I know he is trying.
I prefer Cain 2.0, to be sure. Never cared for the dull one liners.

Matter of taste, I s'pose.
 
I think you have the cart before the horse.

There is plenty of evidence that Russia tried to interfere in the election to damage Clinton.

The GOP in the Senate, and especially in the House are utterly uninterested in this. That *is* evidence that they are unfit to govern,

There is increasing evidence that the Trump team was active in trying to collude with Russia, but I'll let that lie for now.

Your post seems to miss the point of what you quoted. Still, perhaps it can be said to try to convert this response into something more relevant that - the Russian interference is bad, but the GOP's response is of dramatically greater concern, given that the GOP officially should be working for the USA's benefit, but aren't, in a particularly dangerous way.



Either way, Russia's interference is a definite problem, regardless, and one that has deserved a response of notable and coordinated action. That that action seems to have only happened in very limited and seemingly uncoordinated ways is an obvious indicator of the significant problems of the current state of our government. On a different, but related matter to what Emily's Cat said, such actions being done by Russia are nearly completely unsurprising, given the relationship between the US and Russia. It's newsworthy, but it's also not going to hold an audience's attention for long. Had it been, say, Canada or the UK, though, it would likely be much bigger news, given that that actually would be much more surprising, given the relationships between the countries. It would still be a matter that's for the government to deal with, though, in the minds of most, and thus would likely quickly fade into the background.

Trump and the GOP's actions, on the other hand, tend to affect us far more directly, in fair part because we bear responsibility for them and how to respond to their actions to some extent. That leads to more attention tending to go that way from the start, and more attention continuing to go that way as ongoing related developments happen in fairly plain sight, rather than towards the intentionally hidden actions of other countries.



Or you failed to explain it properly.

I disagree. Emily's Cat was fairly clear with what she said. A lack of understanding of what she said is far more an issue on the part of the readers than it was on how she expressed it. Disagreement with what was said may well not be, though. Some of her implied observations are quite correct, regardless. That Russia's actions are in the spotlight more because of Trump and that the attention of most people is more directly focused on Trump than Russia are both fairly certainly true, after all. That she overemphasizes the importance of those things, however, is unsurprisingly in line with the biases that she's demonstrated.
 
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