Ed Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday

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Emily's Cat said:
It is my opinion that the only reason Liberals care about Russian interference is because it's a lever with which to break Trump. If it can't be used to bring down the evil orange overlord, I believe that liberals in general will lose interest. Unless it can be used to demonstrate the lack of ethics and loyalty of conservatives, it's of no import to them. Conservatives only care about Russia because it's being used as a lever against Trump. If there is no direct link found between Russian interference and Trump, I believe conservatives will lose interest. Unless it can be used to demonstrate that liberals are involved in a witch hunt, it's of no import to them.

So basically, in my opinion, the only reason that *most* people care about Russian interference is because of either a deep-seated and irrational reverence of Trump, or a deep-seated and rabid hatred of Trump. Very few people actually seem to care about the actions of Russia on its own merits and as a separate issue.
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I can only speak for myself but I can say that I have both a deep-seated and rabid hatred of Trump and I'm also very concerned about Russia in the bigger picture. In fact, it is easy for me to imagine a scenario where the Russians favor a Democrat (an isolationist, a NATO skeptic, a protectionist) over a Republican and play their dirty tricks to help elect the dems instead. I see them as a existential threat to our democracy regardless of which side they favor.
 
logger said:
Hell, I’ve never seen anything supposedly put out as fake by Russians....You?
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Neither would someone who accepts as truth what they want to believe and who covers their eyes and shouts "Fake News!" when confronted with anything they don't like.
 
To those who see the effort to find out if Trump conspired with the Russians as a purely partisan effort to oust the hated fungus... However it gets done, we need to cast aside Putin's whore if we are to have a chance of getting back to protecting our democracy. With that trairorous, self-indulgent wrecker and his boot-licking sycophants in charge, a descent into a bad place is looming possibility.
 
The_Animus said:
Neither would someone who accepts as truth what they want to believe and who covers their eyes and shouts "Fake News!" when confronted with anything they don't like.
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With respect to the corruption at the FBI/DOJ why wouldn’t you question it?
 
Dr. Keith said:
Sorry, my efforts to conserve precious pixels have failed.



As to the highlighted: I would say the exact opposite. The only reason republican politicians do not care that the president of the United States has had significant dealings with Russia, has encouraged Russian interference in our elections, has obstructed investigations into Russian interference in our elections and appears to really admire and envy the Russian president is because he is a Republican. Not the other way around.

These are all things that were unthinkable acts of treason to republicans only a few years ago. Mitt Romney being one good example of a Republican who thought Russia was our biggest threat.

Republicans cozying up to the Russians is just mind twisting for anyone who can remember the last 30 years.

Seriously, if Obama or Clinton had smoked a Russian cigarette, republicans would have started impeachment hearings over it.*



*Assuming Russian cigarettes are anything like East German cigarettes of the late eighties, the impeachment would have been the least of their woes.
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I'm sorry, Dr. Keith, but again, you seem to be taking the same approach that I've identified here. Your post doesn't appear to address the actions of Russia in and of themselves; rather it appears to focus on Republicans, and the failings of those Republicans... where Russia is presented as evidence and support for an argument against Republicans.

Thus, it seems, that you are far more concerned with Republicans and their failings, their misbehavior, and their presence as a presumed enemy of Democrats.... than you are concerned about the psyops campaign of propaganda and misinformation perpetrated by a foreign nation against the US.

My point here is not intended to denigrate you in any way. I hold that a large number of Republicans are just as closed to the greater issue. As you rightfully point out, they are far more concerned with the president being Republican, and are far too quick to dismiss the issue in their zeal to paint Democrats as their enemy.

It is my opinion that partisanship is at least as big a threat to US democracy as any foreign interference is.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Oh riiight. Who cares they bombarded social media with bots and trolls spreading fake news intended specifically to amplify discord in this country, and to effect the election giving us this incompetent criminal enterprise in the WH.

No, that's not a reason to care about Russia. :rolleyes:

There are many more reasons but if you had been paying attention to facts instead of right wing talking points you'd already know that. Given you posted the above, I imagine you aren't willing to consider the real-reality. No sense in my going on with the rest of the reasons to be concerned about Russia.
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I do wish you would stop resorting to well-poisoning instead of to reading and considering the entirety of the point being made.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It is my opinion that the only reason Liberals care about Russian interference is because it's a lever with which to break Trump. If it can't be used to bring down the evil orange overlord, I believe that liberals in general will lose interest. Unless it can be used to demonstrate the lack of ethics and loyalty of conservatives, it's of no import to them. Conservatives only care about Russia because it's being used as a lever against Trump. If there is no direct link found between Russian interference and Trump, I believe conservatives will lose interest. Unless it can be used to demonstrate that liberals are involved in a witch hunt, it's of no import to them.

So basically, in my opinion, the only reason that *most* people care about Russian interference is because of either a deep-seated and irrational reverence of Trump, or a deep-seated and rabid hatred of Trump. Very few people actually seem to care about the actions of Russia on its own merits and as a separate issue.
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It isn't about conservatives. It's about "the lack of ethics and loyalty" which you so cogently point out.

Complicity with a hostile foreign power to manipulate a presidential election, and even worse, the blithe sanction of such complicity simply out of party politics on a scale unheard of in the history of our country is no small thing.

It doesn't matter if it was Republicans or Dems, conservatives or liberals. It is wrong no matter who did is doing it.

Trying to dismiss disapproval of that as nothing more than partisan bickering is a cop-out.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I'm sorry, Dr. Keith, but again, you seem to be taking the same approach that I've identified here. Your post doesn't appear to address the actions of Russia in and of themselves; rather it appears to focus on Republicans, and the failings of those Republicans... where Russia is presented as evidence and support for an argument against Republicans.

Thus, it seems, that you are far more concerned with Republicans and their failings, their misbehavior, and their presence as a presumed enemy of Democrats.... than you are concerned about the psyops campaign of propaganda and misinformation perpetrated by a foreign nation against the US.

My point here is not intended to denigrate you in any way. I hold that a large number of Republicans are just as closed to the greater issue. As you rightfully point out, they are far more concerned with the president being Republican, and are far too quick to dismiss the issue in their zeal to paint Democrats as their enemy.

It is my opinion that partisanship is at least as big a threat to US democracy as any foreign interference is.
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I think you have the cart before the horse.

There is plenty of evidence that Russia tried to interfere in the election to damage Clinton.

The GOP in the Senate, and especially in the House are utterly uninterested in this. That *is* evidence that they are unfit to govern,

There is increasing evidence that the Trump team was active in trying to collude with Russia, but I'll let that lie for now.
 
Emily's Cat said:
That's exactly the point. You aren't talking about the impact of Russian activity as a thing in and of itself. Most are only talking about how Russian activity could be used to bring Trump down, or how it's a witch hunt.
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Yes. I am.

The fact that it is Trump and his coterie that are doing it is irrelevant. I would be just as concerned if it had been a Democrat.

This is ... or at least ought to be ... way beyond party politics.

In fact, much of my dismay is that the Republicans seem intent on trying to make it about that, instead of being concerned about the integrity of our government.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It is my opinion that the only reason Liberals care about Russian interference is because it's a lever with which to break Trump. If it can't be used to bring down the evil orange overlord, I believe that liberals in general will lose interest. Unless it can be used to demonstrate the lack of ethics and loyalty of conservatives, it's of no import to them.
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For sure, political self-interest is perpetually rampant. Notwithstanding, to assert that liberals don't actually care that the foundation of US democracy is under assault from a hostile power is absurd beyond belief. Brushes that are that fantastically broad should be reserved for tarring 8 lane freeways.

Some people are so wed to their middle-ground high horse that they're completely divorced from reality.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
No, it isn't. It's a blindsided view of what we know. See my post above.
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FWIW, this is what I meant when I agreed to a a degree with Meadmaker.

1. There is serious evidence against members of the Trump campaign, some of which suggests cooperation with Russians.
2. Russian efforts were probably enough to swing this election. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/07/us/politics/russia-facebook-twitter-election.html, https://www.recode.net/2017/10/31/1...congress-facebook-twitter-google-tech-hearing, etc.))

However, any illegal connection between the above and Trump himself is not well known publicly, if it exists. Even if it exists and some people flip on Trump it may not matter if there is not strong corroborating evidence. Fox News is the most powerful entity with regard to this kind of thing and without overwhelming evidence of guilt on Trump's part that has the potential to change the minds of the Fox News base Trump may survive. Assuming that Fox News's principle driver is self interest that self interest is clearly served by pandering to the Trump base right now. That might change but I don't know how anybody can know that it will. There have been some cracks in the Fox News strategy of relentless shilling for Trump. Time will tell if that is significant or just some random perturbations that will fade away.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It is my opinion that the only reason Liberals care about Russian interference is because it's a lever with which to break Trump. If it can't be used to bring down the evil orange overlord, I believe that liberals in general will lose interest. Unless it can be used to demonstrate the lack of ethics and loyalty of conservatives, it's of no import to them. Conservatives only care about Russia because it's being used as a lever against Trump. If there is no direct link found between Russian interference and Trump, I believe conservatives will lose interest. Unless it can be used to demonstrate that liberals are involved in a witch hunt, it's of no import to them.

So basically, in my opinion, the only reason that *most* people care about Russian interference is because of either a deep-seated and irrational reverence of Trump, or a deep-seated and rabid hatred of Trump. Very few people actually seem to care about the actions of Russia on its own merits and as a separate issue.
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I agree with this to some degree. I find it true of myself somewhat although I am a moderate politically, I am disgusted with Trump and I disagree with most of his policies and actions. So I am pretty happy to read about stuff that might bring him down.

That said I believe the Russian's favored Trump for reasons that are very much to the disadvantage of the US.
1. Trump has alienated allies
2. Trump has favored policies that will lead to massive deficits
3. Trump has favored loyalty over anything resembling competence.
4. Trump has substantially ramped up the corruption in the US
5. Trump has substantially increased divisions in the country.
6. Trump's policies on trade are very damaging to the US and will someday be recognized at a significant turning point in the power of the US in the world.
7. Trump's failure to honor the Iranian deal is likely to lead to substantially increased oil prices which would make Russia very happy if there was none of the above.

So while my biases might be something of a driver here I think there is a good case to be made that Trump's Russian connections and Trump's corruption make it such that the US would be better off with almost anybody, including Mike Pence, as president.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
I'm sorry, Dr. Keith, but again, you seem to be taking the same approach that I've identified here. Your post doesn't appear to address the actions of Russia in and of themselves; rather it appears to focus on Republicans, and the failings of those Republicans... where Russia is presented as evidence and support for an argument against Republicans.

Thus, it seems, that you are far more concerned with Republicans and their failings, their misbehavior, and their presence as a presumed enemy of Democrats.... than you are concerned about the psyops campaign of propaganda and misinformation perpetrated by a foreign nation against the US.

My point here is not intended to denigrate you in any way. I hold that a large number of Republicans are just as closed to the greater issue. As you rightfully point out, they are far more concerned with the president being Republican, and are far too quick to dismiss the issue in their zeal to paint Democrats as their enemy.

It is my opinion that partisanship is at least as big a threat to US democracy as any foreign interference is.
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Surely, one can be concerned with Russian activities as well as the Trump campaign and administration's complicity.

If Trump and co. are not involved in any way, the Russian story is still huge news. Given the Trump Tower meeting, the campaign was at least mighty willing to accept help from the Russian government and that's big news too.
 
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