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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 27

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Yes. I wonder what stage Curatolo was going through between around 9pm and 12am on Thursday 1st November 2007...?

To me, the truly fascinating - and worrying - part is quite how any Italian lower court (most especially the Nencini court, in the light of Curatolo's self-destruct testimony before Hellmann) could assess Curatolo's claims as credible and reliable. IMO that's utterly shocking. I believe the only plausible explanation is a craven belief that the prosecution case must have watertight integrity and veracity - in this instance, this would manifest itself in the court somehow concluding "Well, the prosecution must have checked this fellow Curatolo out and deemed him sufficiently credible/reliable to include him in their case, so we'll defer to the prosecution's judgement here".

Fortunately for justice and fairness, the Marasca SC panel could see all of this for what it really was.

Three other views for why Chieffi and Nencini went their arbitrary ways:

1. Authoritarianism and hostility to the reform of the Italian legal system. They can't change the system back to the inquisitorial system, but they can promulgate miscarriages to reduce the effectiveness of that change and signal they simply will not conform to it.

2. Protection of the police and prosecutor from criminal liability for the interrogation and other illegal acts by running out the case beyond the statute of limitations for those acts.

3. An attempt to maintain the "honor" of the police and prosecutor by maintaining, for as long as possible, that they did nothing wrong in the interrogation and other illegal acts.
 
Then it set a much higher bar than BARD.

If, as was found as a fact:

  • There were multiple attackers
  • Knox and Sollecito were present at the scene of the murder
  • The burglary was staged.
  • It is not credible Knox had a shower at the cottage and Sollecito was not with her.
  • Knox did wash the victim's blood from her hands (blood only stays wet for up to 30").
  • The couple had no alibi and lied, and lied and lied

It is not reasonable for the Marasca Court to annul the guilty verdict, and especially without referral, as both the first two lower courts had found the pair guilty, from the merits.

Let us take one example. A fact all agree upon.

Knox was present in the flat where the murder occurred.

So the court has to consider if this is evidence to support guilt. If there is dubiety then it has to be interpreted in favour of the defence. Is there an innocent explanation for the evidence of Knox being present in the flat? Well, she lived there. She was there legitimately present before and after the crime. The prosecution would have to present the case that evidence time stamped Knox as being present at the time of the murder; this they failed to do. The court of cassation points this out the evidence of Knox's presence even if this involved contamination by the victim's blood does not prove her presence at the time of the murder. Therefore it is not evidence of guilt.

In contrast Guede left his blood stained handprint in the room where the murder happened. This provided evidence of identity, and the time and place he was present. Vixen has pointed out that blood is liquid for a short time so we know this could have not been left any significant time after the murder. the court considered whether Guede had a legitimate reason to be present (the date), and concluded that there was not an innocent explanation for his presence - he had never before visited.
 
Then it set a much higher bar than BARD.

If, as was found as a fact:

  • There were multiple attackers
  • Knox and Sollecito were present at the scene of the murder
  • The burglary was staged.
  • It is not credible Knox had a shower at the cottage and Sollecito was not with her.
  • Knox did wash the victim's blood from her hands (blood only stays wet for up to 30").
  • The couple had no alibi and lied, and lied and lied

It is not reasonable for the Marasca Court to annul the guilty verdict, and especially without referral, as both the first two lower courts had found the pair guilty, from the merits.

So let us consider the issue of multiple attackers.

It is true the trials of Guede resulted in it being a judicial fact that there were multiple attackers, but as the court of cassation says;
The decision to which this court is called concerns uniquely the responsibility of Guede regarding the deed with which he is charged, and the possible participation of others in the crime should be taken into account only to the extent to which such a circumstance would have an impact on the exclusive commitment of the Court to either modifying or confirming the verdict of guilt of the defendant
The court emphasises that this is not a judgement of the involvement of others.
The subsequent statement;
Secondly, recalling, with reference to the seriousness of the crime, all the representations and considerations on the subject of the insistent violence against the poor victim, assaulted by several people according to the convincing arguments by the judges of first and second instance, corresponds to the canons for a judgement of rejection of the request concerning mitigation of the penalty, and of the relevance of the general mitigating circumstances that would absorb aggravating circumstances; this is in fact an opinion of merit that is the exclusive competence, within the aforementioned boundaries, of the lower courts.
is rejecting the argument that Guede can present the participation of others as a mitigating factor for his own actions.

The judicial fact from Guede's conviction of his participation with others in the crime cannot be used as evidence against others as the court of cassation emphasised.

We can certainly argue as pro-guilt commentators do that court decisions do not represent what actually happened; that judicial facts are not necessarily 'scientific' facts nor an absolute truth. The Italian legal system recognises this and judicial facts are not evidence. So imported judicial facts from trials of others are not evidence of guilt of individuals.
 
Then it set a much higher bar than BARD.

If, as was found as a fact:

  • There were multiple attackers
  • Knox and Sollecito were present at the scene of the murder
  • The burglary was staged.
  • It is not credible Knox had a shower at the cottage and Sollecito was not with her.
  • Knox did wash the victim's blood from her hands (blood only stays wet for up to 30").
  • The couple had no alibi and lied, and lied and lied

It is not reasonable for the Marasca Court to annul the guilty verdict, and especially without referral, as both the first two lower courts had found the pair guilty, from the merits.

You are wrong with regards to the staging of the burglary.

The court of cassation ruled (it is a judicial fact);
annuls the ruling under appeal without referral with respect to the crimes under charges A), D) and E) of the rubric because the appellants did not commit the act.

So what was crime E) which Knox and Sollecito did not commit?
E) of the offence under Italian Penal Code Articles 367, 110, and 61 no. 2, for having, in collaboration between themselves, simulated an attempted burglary in the bedroom occupied by FILOMENA ROMANELLI in the apartment on via della Pergola 7, breaking the glass of the window with a stone taken from the vicinity of the residence, which was left in the room near the window, all in order to secure themselves impunity from the offences of homicide and sexual violence, by attempting to attribute the responsibility therefore to unknown persons [who would have] penetrated the apartment to this end.
It is true from Guede's trial
as the judges of the lower courts have correctly held, that following the murder an activity occurred intended to simulate an attempted theft, which the judges of lower courts and the defence of the same appellant agree was an operation done by others and not by the defendant;
but this is not evidence of the involvement of Knox and Sollecito as the court emphasised. This is a product of the prosecution introducing into the case against Guede irrelevant facts to the case against Guede to poison the case against Knox. My guess is that by 'trying' Knox and Sollecito in a court in which they had no defence -Guede's trial, the prosecution hoped to influence pubic opinion and put pressure on Sollecito to do a deal against Knox.
 
Ah, yes..."pride". If I'm ever arrested for anything in the UK, please give me a list of these barristers. So I can avoid hiring them.

Heheh they work at top chambers, way out of your price range, probably. One has been nominated as barrister of the year a few times by the law society.
 
Oh, dear. WHAT negative question?
k

Chiacchiera was saying that 'he knew' that a shower had supposedly been reported. He didn't actually verify himself there had been a shower taken.

MaCh:
Of the bathrooms, if I take a shower in a bathroom where I find faeces instinctively pull the drain, in short.
MC:
Yes, but the feces were on the other bathroom.
MaCh:
Yes, yes, I understand, however, in short, somehow is instinctive, no, to pull the drain. The fact is that ...
GCM:
Excuse me, do you know how many bathrooms there were in the house?
MaCh:
Two.
GCM:
Two bathrooms. Sorry, please. Do you know that a shower was taken?
MaCh:
Yup.
GCM:
How do you know?
MaCh:
I know it because it's something that I can not, I think, report because it was ...
GCM:
But you have verified ...
MaCh:
I try to be very very careful.
GB:
President, we are talking about nothing.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Marco_Chiacchiera's_Testimony

So your claim Chiacchiera investigated the shower and confirmed it is a complete nothing burger.


He also says:

GB:
You said, it turns out in transcription, that another anomaly would be given by the fact that Knox herself took a shower in a bathroom and at the same time, she said textually - because I wrote her here - she said, "To me this seemed abnormal because if I see the feces in the water I pull the water and I do not take a shower".
MaCh:
Yes, I was wrong, the shower did not make it there.
GB:
The shower did not make it there. It turns out therefore that this is his mistake, perfect. In what era did you enter the ... I did not understand this if you said "in the house" or "in the room" of the crime with Dr. Mignini.
MaCh:
In the crime room I did not go inside, that is, I did not cross the door because I would have run ... but it was full of blood, imagine, I would have run the risk of contamination. Then it is a good rule when there is the scientific police who are already doing the survey in some way to avoid disturbing. I entered ... you surely, lawyer, will know how the house is made ...
GCM:
Excuse me, talk to everyone.
MaCh:
Excuse me, he's right. The house has a corridor, at the end of the corridor there is a small bathroom, on the left there is the room ... that is, adjacent to the bath, at the end of the corridor on the left, there is Meredith's room. Let's say that I kept myself in such a way as to observe everything that was inside the room but not ... it was also, how to say, very difficult to get inside because the corpse was in such a position that inside it would have been difficult. Then there was already in there already, when we arrived with Dr. Mignini, the guys from the Scientific that had begun to do ...
GB:
My question was much simpler. That is, we are talking only about the day ...
MaCh:
I was trying to give an exhaustive answer.
GB:
Are we talking about day 2?
MaCh:
We are talking about the 'immediate ... the afternoon after the discovery of the body. That is to say later in the afternoon the discovery of the corpse. The body was discovered at a certain time, it should be two and a half, three, so we arrived with Dr. Mignini and I did not go inside, I kept myself in such a way as to observe all that ...
GB:
Standing in the house but not in the room, right?
MaCh:
Yup.
GB:
Was it in all the rooms or just in some rooms?
MaCh:
I was in Romanelli's room, where the stone was. I entered the corridor, along the corridor, which I remember. I looked at all the various traces that were inside the bath. I saw the feces, so I also went into the other bathroom.
ibid


So, in effect Chiachiarra kept his distance from the small bathroom as he feared contamination of the scene.
 
This has long been my question. The ability to acknowledge error is an indication of mental and emotional health and maturity. The inability to admit error, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, indicates a psychological/emotional problem. A classic example of someone who cannot ever admit error is Trump.

That's weird. A healthcare worker like yourself not knowing that heroin is classed as a depressant. So categorised because it has a depressant effect on the autonomous nervous system (ANS)..

Hey, leave Trump alone, we share a common ancestor, apparently.
 
Let us take one example. A fact all agree upon.

Knox was present in the flat where the murder occurred.

So the court has to consider if this is evidence to support guilt.[1] If there is dubiety then it has to be interpreted in favour of the defence. Is there an innocent explanation for the evidence of Knox being present in the flat? Well, she lived there. She was there legitimately present before and after the crime. The prosecution would have to present the case that evidence time stamped Knox as being present at the time of the murder; this they failed to do. The court of cassation points this out the evidence of Knox's presence even if this involved contamination by the victim's blood does not prove her presence at the time of the murder. Therefore it is not evidence of guilt.

In contrast Guede left his blood stained handprint in the room where the murder happened. This provided evidence of identity, and the time and place he was present. Vixen has pointed out that blood is liquid for a short time so we know this could have not been left any significant time after the murder. the court considered whether Guede had a legitimate reason to be present (the date), and concluded that there was not an innocent explanation for his presence - he had never before visited.

[1] Both Massei and Nencini - the merits and appeal courts - did uphold there was enough evidence to support their charges of Aggravated Murder. In effect, they were present at the murder.

From the Marasca Supreme Court Motivational Report, Sept 2015:

It remains anyway strong the suspicion that he [Sollecito] was actually in the Via della Pergola house the night of the murder, in a moment that, however, it was impossible to determine. On the other hand, since the presence of Ms. Knox inside the house is sure, it is hardly credible that he was not with her.

And even following one of the versions released by the woman, that is the one in accord to which, returning home in the morning of November 2. after a night spent at her boyfriend’s place, she reports of having immediately noticed that something strange had happened (open door, blood traces everywhere); or even the other one, that she reports in her memorial, in accord to which she was present in the house at the time of the murder, but in a different room, not the one in which the violent aggression on Ms. Kercher was being committed, it is very strange that she did not call her boyfriend, since there is no record about a phone call from her, based on the phone records within the file.

Even more if we consider that having being in Italy for a short time, she would be presumably uninformed about what to do in such emergency cases, therefore the first and maybe only person whom she could ask for help would have been her boyfriend himself, who lived only a few hundred meters away from her house.

Not doing this signifies Sollecito was with her, unaffected, obviously, the procedural relevance of his mere presence in that house, in the absence of certain proof of his causal contribution to the murderous action.

The defensive argument extending the computer interaction up to the visualization of a cartoon, downloaded from the internet, in a time that they claim compatible with the time of death of Ms. Kercher, is certainly not sufficient to dispel such strong suspicions. In fact, even following the reconstruction claimed by the defence and even if we assume as certain that the interaction was by Mr. Sollecito himself and that he watched the whole clip, still the time of ending of his computer activity wouldn’t be incompatible with his subsequent presence in Ms. Kercher’s house, given the short distance between the two houses, walkable in about ten [sic] minutes. [nb: actually, more like four minutes]


An element of strong suspicion, also, derives from his confirmation, during spontaneous declarations, the alibi presented by Ms. Knox about the presence of both inside the house of the current appellant the night of the murder, a theory that is denied by the statements of Curatolo, who declared of having witnessed the two together from 21:30 until 24:00 in piazza Grimana; and by Quintavalle on the presence of a young woman, later identified as Ms. Knox, when he opened his store in the morning of November 2.

An umpteenth element of suspicion is the basic failure of the alibi linked to other, claimed human interactions in the computer of his belongings, albeit if we can’t talk about false alibi, since it’s more appropriate to speak about unsuccessful alibi.

Sollecito in his police interview of the 5 Nov 2007, shortly after which he was arrested, withdrew his alibi from Amanda Knox. During the Nencini appeal phase, he and his advocate, Bongiorno, called a press conference to underline that Sollecito ‘could not vouch for Knox’ whereabouts between 8:45 pm and 1:00 am on the night of the murder. Sollecito has never once retracted this withdrawal of an alibi for Amanda.


Sollecito had claimed he was surfing the internet until 3:00 am in one statement and claimed to have watched Naruto cartoon until 9:45 pm on the murder night. Marasca winds up:


The technical tests requested by the defence cannot grant any contribution of clarity, not only because a long time has passed, but also because they regard aspects of problematic examination (such as the possibility of selective cleaning) or of manifest irrelevance (technical analysis on Sollecito’s computer) given that is was possible, as said, for him to go to Kercher’s house whatever the length of his interaction with the computer (even if one concedes that such interaction exists), or they are manifestly unnecessary, given that some unexceptionable technical analysis carried out are exhaustive (such are for example the cadaver inspection and the following medico-legal examinations).

Leading to the verdict:

Following the considerations above, it is obvious that a remand [rinvio] would be useless, hence the declaration of annulment without remand, based on art. 620 L) of the procedure code, thus we apply an acquittal [proscioglimento *] formula [see note just below] which a further judge on remand would be anyway compelled to apply, to abide to the principles of law established in this current sentence.

*[Translator’s note: The Italian word for “acquittal” is actually “assoluzione”; while the term “proscioglimento” instead, in the Italian Procedure Code, actually refers only to non-definitive preliminary judgments during investigation phase, and it could be translated as “dropping of charges”. Note: as for investigation phase “proscioglimento” is normally meant as a non-binding decision, not subjected to double jeopardy, since it is not considered a judgment nor a court’s decision.] http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Marasca-Bruno_Report_(English)


*The term "proscioglimento" (translates as "acquittal" is normally used if a case is "tossed out" during pre-trial (Art. 529). This is a decision that is open to appeal and therefore not a "final" decision. Without a definite ruling the case against the defendants could be re-opened, theoretically.

In addition, the Florence Appeal Court hearing Raff's claim for compensation for 'wrongful imprisonment' ruled definitively, and as upheld by the Supreme Court, that it was a fact
  • Amanda Knox was present at the murder of Meredith Kercher
  • Amanda Knox washed Mereidith Kercher's blood from her hands.
  • Amanda Knox heard Mereidthi Kercher scream.
  • Raffaele Sollecito was almost certainly present, also.

So your cliam there was not enough evidence that Knox had anything to do with the murder itself raises the following deep concerns:

  • Why she did nothing tho help her 'friend'.
  • Whay Amanda Knox failed to call the police once.
  • Amanda Knox failed to call the emergency services to get medical help.
  • Both Knox and Sollecito were hostile and resistant to police investigation.
  • Amanda Knox actively and persistently lied, including falsely blaming Patrick Lumumba of the murder.
  • To this day, neither of the two have provided a full eye witness account of what happened whilst they were *present at the murder*, if they had 'nothing to do with it'.


A court of law is supposed to settle matters. Marasca abnegated its duty in this by falling back on the loophole, much loved by Italy's wayward politicians (cf Berlusconi and the other statesman guy), of 'insufficient evidence', neither guilty nor exonerated, nor innocent, but 'not guilty because of insufficient evidence but with strong suspicions of their guilt'.

It is no surprise Bruno was moved out of the frontline judiciary into a desk job, and Marasca retired immediately after. It is known they sold their integrity to the mob.
 
It is no surprise Bruno was moved out of the frontline judiciary into a desk job, and Marasca retired immediately after. It is known they sold their integrity to the mob.


Ah.... would that you were an Italian citizen living in Italy........
 
You are wrong with regards to the staging of the burglary.



So what was crime E) which Knox and Sollecito did not commit?

It is true from Guede's trial

but this is not evidence of the involvement of Knox and Sollecito as the court emphasised. This is a product of the prosecution introducing into the case against Guede irrelevant facts to the case against Guede to poison the case against Knox. My guess is that by 'trying' Knox and Sollecito in a court in which they had no defence -Guede's trial, the prosecution hoped to influence pubic opinion and put pressure on Sollecito to do a deal against Knox.

The prosecutors and judges who participated in this scheme had a more serious aim: to use the results of Guede's trial in which Knox and Sollecito were identified as participants in Guede's crimes against Kercher, although they could not defend themselves during his trial, as evidence against Knox and Sollecito in their trial. This would have been permitted under the Italian Constitution and Italian law prior to 1999, but constitutional and legal reforms in the period 1999 - 2005, based upon the judgment against Italy by the ECHR in Craxi v. Italy, made such use of prior judgments against persons not represented in the trial illegal.

One point to be observed is that a judgment against a CoE state by the ECHR can result in very profound changes of a general nature in that state's legal system.

For details, see:

http://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng#{%22EXECIdentifier%22:[%22001-68986%22]}

"Resolution ResDH(2005)28
concerning the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights
of 5 December 2002 (final on 5 March 2003)
in the case of Craxi No. 2 against Italy

(Adopted by the Committee of Ministers on 25 April 2005
at the 922nd meeting of the Ministers' Deputies)"

excerpts:

"Whereas in its judgment of 5 December 2002 the Court unanimously:

- held that there had been a violation of Article 6, paragraphs 1 and 3 d) of the Convention in that it had been impossible to examine or have examined prosecution witnesses who had died or had exercised their right to remain silent;"

"As regards the general measures {that Italy was obligated to pursue as a result of the judgment of the ECHR against it}, the government recalls that, subsequent to the violation in this case, important measures have been adopted by Italy with a view to ensuring the fairness of criminal proceedings in accordance with Article 6 of the Convention.

Constitutional reform of 1999

Article 111 of the Italian Constitution, as modified in November 1999, gave Constitutional rank to a number of requirements contained in Article 6 of the Convention and, in its new wording, it provides in particular that:

“1. Jurisdiction shall be exercised through fair proceedings, conducted in accordance with the law.

2. All proceedings shall be conducted in compliance with the principles of adversarial process and equality of arms before a neutral and impartial court. The right to be tried within a reasonable time shall be guaranteed by law.

3. In criminal proceedings, the law shall guarantee that the person accused of an offence is informed promptly and in confidence of the nature and grounds of the charge against him; that he shall have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence; that he shall be given an opportunity before the court to examine or to have examined anyone giving evidence against him, to obtain the attendance and examination of any defence witnesses on the same conditions as witnesses called by the prosecution and to obtain the production of any other evidence in his favour; and that he will have the assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used at the trial.

4. The principle of adversarial process shall be observed during criminal proceedings with regard to the examination of evidence. The guilt of an accused cannot be established on the basis of statements made by a person who has freely and wilfully eluded examination by the accused or his lawyer.

5. Rules shall be made governing the circumstances in which adversarial examination of the evidence is to be dispensed with, either because the accused has consented or because there is due evidence that such examination is objectively impossible or that there has been unlawful conduct.”

Legislative reform of 2001

A law implementing the new constitutional provision was adopted by Parliament in 2001 (Law No. 63 of 1/03/2001), which amended inter alia Article 513 of the Code of Criminal Procedure, application of which was at the basis of the violation found in this case.

According to the law now in force, pre-trial statements made by a person who subsequently avails himself of his right to remain silent in the debate, may be read and used by the judge only if all the interested parties consent to it unless the judge establishes that the refusal to be cross-questioned in the proceedings is the result of bribery or threats.

This rule applies not only to statements made in the same proceedings but also to those made in other proceedings and, in this last case, the statements may not even be read without the consent of the accused person concerned.

However, if it proves impossible to secure the presence of the person who made the statements or to examine him or her in accordance with the adversarial principle, where that impossibility is the result of events or circumstances that were unforeseeable when the statements at issue were made, Article 512 of the Code of Criminal Procedure applies. This provision reads as follows: “At the request of one of the parties, the judge shall order to be read in court documents resulting from enquiries by the police, by the representative of the prosecuting authorities, by the private parties' representatives or by the judge in connection with the preliminary hearing, where, on account of unforeseeable events or circumstances, those enquiries can no longer be repeated.”

As a result of these measures, it is no longer possible that a person is convicted exclusively on the basis of statements that he/she could not examine or have examined."
 
That's weird. A healthcare worker like yourself not knowing that heroin is classed as a depressant. So categorised because it has a depressant effect on the autonomous nervous system (ANS)..

Hey, leave Trump alone, we share a common ancestor, apparently.


What?

Let's recap on this latest car crash, shall we?

Yes, let's. Here's what happened, Vixen - in chronological order:

1) Stacyhs made a reference to Curatolo being high on heroin.

2) You, Vixen, "corrected" Stacyhs by stating that one cannot get "high" on heroin since it's a depressant (a statement which is factually incorrect, for reasons which will become apparent....)

3) I and others pointed out to you, Vixen, with references, that one indeed can and does get "high" on heroin. It appears you've made the fatuous mistake of thinking that depressant/sedative drugs cannot make a user "high" (and that by corollary, only "upper" drugs can make a user "high"). This is a total misunderstanding of what "high" means in the context of mind-altering-drug use.

4) Stacyhs then made a post in which she wondered why you could not own up to your error (i.e. your error in stating that heroin users cannot/do not get "high").

5) In "response" to that post by Stacyhs, you, Vixen, have created another straw man about heroin being a depressant drug - which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the matter at hand, which is your error in "correcting" Stacyhs by claiming that heroin users cannot get "high" on the drug.


So exactly why is it, Vixen, that you apparently cannot ever admit to an error of fact or judgement? It's fascinating.

Maybe we can start now, eh? Will you admit that you were wrong and factually incorrect when you tried to "correct" Stacyhs by stating that heroin users cannot/do not get "high" on heroin?

Go on, Vixen. Try owning your errors. It just might help a teeny bit with the overall credibility of your other attempts at argument........
 
.
.
To me, the truly fascinating - and worrying - part is quite how any Italian lower court (most especially the Nencini court, in the light of Curatolo's self-destruct testimony before Hellmann) could assess Curatolo's claims as credible and reliable. IMO that's utterly shocking. .



I completely agree with Numbers post as to why Chieffi and Nencini went their arbitrary ways:


1. Authoritarianism and hostility to the reform of the Italian legal system. They can't change the system back to the inquisitorial system, but they can promulgate miscarriages to reduce the effectiveness of that change and signal they simply will not conform to it.

2. Protection of the police and prosecutor from criminal liability for the interrogation and other illegal acts by running out the case beyond the statute of limitations for those acts. 3. An attempt to maintain the "honor" of the police and prosecutor by maintaining, for as long as possible, that they did nothing wrong in the interrogation and other illegal acts.
 
Marasca Bruno said:
It remains anyway strong the suspicion that he [Sollecito] was actually in the Via della Pergola house the night of the murder, in a moment that, however, it was impossible to determine. On the other hand, since the presence of Ms. Knox inside the house is sure, it is hardly credible that he was not with her.
Vixen lets the highlighted part slide by as if unimportant to why Marasca-Bruno's section of Cassazione acquitted.

To let it go by uncommented on, shows why/how Vixen and guilters in general cherry-pick stuff from the various reports to distort their impact; except here Vixen forgets to prune it out.

More specifically, one of the reasons the ISC acquitted was because it was impossible to pin down - on the evidence - when the pair had been at the cottage.

Further, if the ISC section was going to believe the prosecution's theory(ies), even if true all that they accomplished was putting the pair at the cottage after the crime took place and in another location than the murder room.

All of which are reasons to acquit. Apparently it had been a violation of Italian law for the Nencini court to have convicted when that court had only put them at the scene.....

in a moment that, however, it was impossible to determine.​
This fact renders anything any other court says useless, particularly the subsequent compensation court, which did not hear evidence directly related to the murder. In fact, retreating into language which disputed facts contained within the series of trials directly related to the murder should be instructive to those of us up here in the cheap seats who've tried to piece together the judicial mess begun by Mignini.

And all this is before considering what the M/B court had said about the initial investigation, that it was flawed to the point of being useless to the courts. Another reason to acquit, even in Italy.
 
Vixen lets the highlighted part slide by as if unimportant to why Marasca-Bruno's section of Cassazione acquitted.

To let it go by uncommented on, shows why/how Vixen and guilters in general cherry-pick stuff from the various reports to distort their impact; except here Vixen forgets to prune it out.

More specifically, one of the reasons the ISC acquitted was because it was impossible to pin down - on the evidence - when the pair had been at the cottage.

Further, if the ISC section was going to believe the prosecution's theory(ies), even if true all that they accomplished was putting the pair at the cottage after the crime took place and in another location than the murder room.

All of which are reasons to acquit. Apparently it had been a violation of Italian law for the Nencini court to have convicted when that court had only put them at the scene.....

in a moment that, however, it was impossible to determine.​
This fact renders anything any other court says useless, particularly the subsequent compensation court, which did not hear evidence directly related to the murder. In fact, retreating into language which disputed facts contained within the series of trials directly related to the murder should be instructive to those of us up here in the cheap seats who've tried to piece together the judicial mess begun by Mignini.

And all this is before considering what the M/B court had said about the initial investigation, that it was flawed to the point of being useless to the courts. Another reason to acquit, even in Italy.


Marasca most certainly does pinpoint the moment Knox was present at the murder:

we now note, with respect to Amanda Knox, that her presence inside the house, the location of the murder, is a proven fact in the trial, in accord with her own admissions, also contained in the memoriale with her signature, in the part where she tells that, as she was in the kitchen, while the young English woman had retired inside the room of same Ms. Kercher together with another person for a sexual intercourse, she heard a harrowing scream from her friend, so piercing and unbearable that she let herself down squatting on the floor, covering her ears tight with her hands in order not to hear more of it.

Only a trial can prove facts.
 
Marasca most certainly does pinpoint the moment Knox was present at the murder:



Only a trial can prove facts.

Must be a typo because Hellmann didn't convict her of calunnia for being present during the murder, but because she should have used the power of deduction to conclude that since Patrick didn't know Meredith, he couldn't be at the cottage murdering Meredith. Poor logic to be sure especially since the police were suggesting to Amanda he left his bar to head to the cottage, but that was the fact established at trial for the charge confirmed by the Chieffi court.
 
One issue with the guilters is that they continually misinterpret or misrepresent the meaning of Italian words, in order to suit their agenda.

For example, the word "proscioglimento", a commonly used word in the Italian legal system, has several meanings or translations in English, including:

acquittal, dismissal, exoneration

See: https://dictionary.reverso.net/italian-english/proscioglimento

In the context of the CPP, "proscioglimento" is used as a word to cover as a group all the forms of dismissal or release from a court, whether or not on a preliminary basis, including acquittal.

Here's a use of "proscioglimento" in context in the CPP:

CAPO II - DECISIONE

SEZIONE I - Sentenza di proscioglimento

Art. 529. Sentenza di non doversi procedere.

1. Se l'azione penale non doveva essere iniziata o non deve essere proseguita, il giudice pronuncia sentenza di non doversi procedere indicandone la causa nel dispositivo.

2. Il giudice provvede nello stesso modo quando la prova dell'esistenza di una condizione di procedibilità è insufficiente o contraddittoria.

Art. 530. Sentenza di assoluzione.

1. Se il fatto non sussiste, se l'imputato non lo ha commesso, se il fatto non costituisce reato o non è previsto dalla legge come reato ovvero se il reato è stato commesso da persona non imputabile o non punibile per un'altra ragione, il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione indicandone la causa nel dispositivo.

2. Il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione anche quando manca, è insufficiente o è contraddittoria la prova che il fatto sussiste, che l'imputato lo ha commesso, che il fatto costituisce reato o che il reato è stato commesso da persona imputabile.

3. Se vi è la prova che il fatto è stato commesso in presenza di una causa di giustificazione o di una causa personale di non punibilità ovvero vi è dubbio
sull'esistenza delle stesse, il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione a norma del comma 1.

4. Con la sentenza di assoluzione il giudice applica, nei casi previsti dalla legge, le misure di sicurezza.

Art. 531. Dichiarazione di estinzione del reato.

1. Salvo quanto disposto dall'articolo 129 comma 2, il giudice, se il reato è estinto, pronuncia sentenza di non doversi procedere enunciandone la causa nel dispositivo.

2. Il giudice provvede nello stesso modo quando vi è dubbio sull'esistenza di una causa di estinzione del reato.

To save space while making the point, here is a translation of the relevant text:

CHAPTER II - DECISION

SECTION I - Judgments of dismissal {all types of dismissal - this is a heading that covers the several types of dismissal}
Art. 529. Judgment of no need to proceed {the proceedings should not have been started or continued}.

1. If the criminal action was not to be initiated or not must be continued, the judge pronounces sentence not to proceed, indicating the cause in the short verdict (disposition).
...

Art. 530. Judgment of acquittal.....

Art. 531. Declaration of extinction of the crime. {The statute of limitations for the crime has passed.}....

Source of the Italian CPP text: http://www.legislationline.org/documents/section/criminal-codes/country/22
 
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Marasca most certainly does pinpoint the moment Knox was present at the murder cottage:

Finally, something which we can (partially) agree upon.

As you point out, it was not the 5th Chambers role to determine anything. It was the 5th Chambers role to either confirm or overturn the Nencini conviction.

When the 5th Chambers read what Nencini had claimed "proved" the pair had been there at the time of the murder, the 5th Chambers specifically wrote that:

...... even if all that the prosecution had said was true, all that that proved was that they'd been at the cottage after the murder and in a location other than the murder room.

This is something that NOBODY denies. Apparently even in Italy it is illegal to find someone guilty if the only thing the prosecution had demonstrated was that they'd been there after the crime, and in a location other than the one the crime had been committed in.

So, let's review. You've posted sections from the 5th Chambers' report that says that the court had only put them at the scene.....

in a moment that, however, it was impossible to determine.​
And now you're claiming that the Marasca-Bruno court had put them there at the time of the murder?

Yes, folks, that's how the small but energetic guilt-PR campaign machine rolls.
 
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I love post 2015 guilter arguments based around convincing us that the Italian justice system is corrupt.

Chill guys, we know :cool:
 
One issue with the guilters is that they continually misinterpret or misrepresent the meaning of Italian words, in order to suit their agenda.

For example, the word "proscioglimento", a commonly used word in the Italian legal system, has several meanings or translations in English, including:

acquittal, dismissal, exoneration

See: https://dictionary.reverso.net/italian-english/proscioglimento

The Italian compared with an English Translation:

10. L'intrinseca contraddittorietà degli elementi probatori, emergente dal testo
della sentenza impugnata, inficia in nuce il tessuto connettivo della stessa pronuncia
comportandone ltannullamento.
Ed infatti, in presenza di uno scenario contrassegnato da tanta contraddittorietà il
giudice del rinvio non avrebbe potuto pronunciare sentenza di condanna, ma - come,
in precedenza, osservato - era tenuto ad emettere statuizione assolutoria, a mente
dell'art. 530, comma 2, cod. proc. pen.​
10. The intrinsic contradictory nature of the evidence, emerging from the text of
the appealed verdict, in essence undermines the connective tissue of the same,
leading to its annulment.
In fact, in the presence of a scenario marked by many contradictions, the
referral judge should not have come to a verdict of guilt, but - as previously
observed – should have reached a verdict of not guilty, given Article 530, section 2,
Italian Code of Criminal Procedure.​
It annulled the Nencini conviction, and acquitted them giving Article 530 Section 2 as a reference, which is an acquittal.

So what are we talking about?
 
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