Who determines the number of genders- and how?

cullennz said:
By the sounds of it some people say there is no way to know some ones gender.
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I've found interacting with others free of preconceived impositions to be a good start.

And even if the person tells you this doesn't matter as apparently it can be fluid
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That's hardly unique to this topic. Most people are not one-dimensional caricatures and a handful of even their most cherished identity types barely scratches the surface of who they are.

You are somewhat correct that it doesn't matter. Other people's gender identities will likely have almost zero material impact on your life.

Meanwhile, labels like rapist/predator are tossed around in these discussions with alarming frequency. Not to discuss the plight of bathroom assaults (which seems to not get brought up until we're discussing gender), mind you. Instead, it always goes to assigning the blame for it on one or more sex/gender groups, descending into general greivance-mongering between tribes and endless anecdotes.

I hear/read the stories and often find myself quite agreeing that the behaviors described are awful. Still not sure why that means I'm supposed to condemn all of every kind of identity they claim because of it (or some of them but not others).

I care if people are being dicks, whether they have one or not doesn't change what conclusions I make from there.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
 
Delphic Oracle said:
I've found interacting with others free of preconceived impositions to be a good start.



That's hardly unique to this topic. Most people are not one-dimensional caricatures and a handful of even their most cherished identity types barely scratches the surface of who they are.

You are somewhat correct that it doesn't matter. Other people's gender identities will likely have almost zero material impact on your life.

Meanwhile, labels like rapist/predator are tossed around in these discussions with alarming frequency. Not to discuss the plight of bathroom assaults (which seems to not get brought up until we're discussing gender), mind you. Instead, it always goes to assigning the blame for it on one or more sex/gender groups, descending into general greivance-mongering between tribes and endless anecdotes.

I hear/read the stories and often find myself quite agreeing that the behaviors described are awful. Still not sure why that means I'm supposed to condemn all of every kind of identity they claim because of it (or some of them but not others).

I care if people are being dicks, whether they have one or not doesn't change what conclusions I make from there.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
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I tell you what

You find some examples of posters using words like rapist on this thread.

And then have a look at who is most using them.

I think you will be surprised

It seems to most come from people who think dudes should be allowed in women's toilets.

As a form of accusation that those who dont think everyone is a rapist

When no one says they all are
 
Kind of like

"Too many blokes kill themselves"

"More women than men attempt suicide"

"Yeah. It is really bad, but heaps more men actually die"

"Why do you hate women?"
 
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cullennz said:
I tell you what

You find some examples of posters using words like rapist on this thread.

And then have a look at who is most using them.

I think you will be surprised

It seems to most come from people who think dudes should be allowed in women's toilets.

As a form of accusation that those who dont think everyone is a rapist

When no one says they all are
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Outrage noted.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
 
cullennz said:
My point was it seems to come from the other way

But all good
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I made a whole statement about hasty generalizations, conflating identity with unrelated behaviors that already have other words for them and avoiding the meat of the discussion with tales of victimization.

Your response is to go right back to assigning which group this behavior should be more tied to.

We've made real progress here.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
 
kellyb said:
Gay eugenics? :confused:
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Because medical science isn’t up to gender reassignment surgery that produces genitalia that’s functional for reproduction, he equates it to sterilization, which he equates to eugenics.
 
sadhatter said:
Where do you draw your line?

What things require outside identification , in your opinion.
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In my opinion? I can only think of competitive sports as an area where sometimes transpeople have an unfair advantage and it would be necessary to "draw a line." Beyond that I can't think of any circumstances where it would be necessary to violate someone's privacy.
 
cullennz said:
I don't get your point sorry

Why do you have to have inspections?

Currently if someone flops their schlong out in the women's it gets noticed and they get told to leave
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Wait, what?

If a person presented as a woman, has breasts, wears women's clothing, makeup etc, but had a penis...under what circumstances would they "flop it out" so that others could see it in the women's restroom? Toilets are in stalls and except for unusual circumstances ther is no reason for anyone to see it.

As a frequent user of the men's room, I can't remember the last time I saw someone's penis. People don't get naked and show things off, they just take care of business and leave.
 
Marcus said:
The way I understand it, by all means correct me if I am wrong, is that trans has nothing to do with sexual orientation. If one were to trans from male to female, and that person preferred females as sexual partners, then they would be a lesbian.
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That is the current useage of the vernacular, which also (in my experience) often makes for confusing reading as one tries to sort out the genders and gender preverences.

Marcus said:
Do biological women prefer to be placed in the same category as transwomen? Shouldn't they have a say in the matter?
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In what circumstances?
 
Well since cis-men aren't generally walking around flopping their penis out either, why can't they just walk into women's restrooms as well?

I don't get why a penis on a man who identifies as a man and a penis on a man who identifies as a woman have to have separate categories for when and where they are appropriate.

I'm pretty sure we as a society have well established the "when it is appropriate to flop your penis out" standard. So I don't get the handwringing over when a specific penis attached to a person with a specific "identity" gets flopped out.

I'm sorry I still, no matter how hard I try, see this as maintaining standards for the sole purpose of letting a subgroup subvert them.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
Is it a push though? A lot of the cases seem to be about children not just being gender nonconforming but gender conforming. Got any research or statistics to back this up?
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To back up what exactly?

That there is a general push towards "transing" children? No specific research, just general observation of society.

To back up that childhood gender non-conformity is a predictor of adulthood homosexuality rather than (or at least much more than) adulthood sex dysmorphia? Sure, I could look it up if you want, but I thought this was rather uncontentious.

You need to be more precise here.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Well since cis-men aren't generally walking around flopping their penis out either, why can't they just walk into women's restrooms as well?
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Seriously, though, why not? Is there some way to answer this that doesn't come back to socially conditioned discomfort with the oppposite sex?

Again, I must recommend Mary Anne Case on point. It is nigh time to reconsider the last vestiges of sanctioned segregation.
 
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d4m10n said:
Seriously, though, why not? Is there some way to answer this that doesn't come back to socially conditioned discomfort with the oppposite sex?
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I have literally no idea and there's where I've been stuck at this entire discussion.

Outside of leaving something in the system just for the sole purpose of giving people something to be proudly and show-offy "Lookit at me being more progressive than you" about.

Nobody has even attempted outside of a kneejerk "Transphobia!" to explain how an emotional reaction to a woman seeing a man in their restroom and a man seeing a woman who "identifies as a man" in their restroom is supposed to be any different.
 
kellyb said:
Outside of the basic cultural understanding of gender/sex, gender is mostly meaningless when I think about myself.
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That's great, but I'm not asking you to think about yourself.

I'm saying that gender is (at least) a social phenomenon, and that it's usually easy to distinguish between genders without recourse to invasive anatomical inspection. And I don't mean (just) skirts and makeup.
 
mumblethrax said:
That's great, but I'm not asking you to think about yourself.

I'm saying that gender is (at least) a social phenomenon, and that it's usually easy to distinguish between genders without recourse to invasive anatomical inspection. And I don't mean (just) skirts and makeup.
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Before recently, gender and sex were taken as synonymous by most of the population, and determined by what external stuff you have at birth.

What's the difference between gender and gender roles?
 
kellyb said:
Before recently, gender and sex were taken as synonymous by most of the population, and determined by what external stuff you have at birth.
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If by 'recently' you mean more than fifty years ago, which is when people began untangling gender and sex. This isn't exactly cutting-edge work. Prior to that, most people didn't use gender and sex synonymously, because most people didn't use the word gender at all, outside of grammatical contexts.

Here, for example, is some old fart complaining about people using gender and sex synonymously in 1990:

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/27/opinion/l-gender-can-t-replace-sex-but-what-can-667090.html

That's not a complaint you hear much anymore, because that wave of old farts are mostly dead now.

What's the difference between gender and gender roles?
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Gender includes all distinctions between masculine and feminine. Gender roles are largely social prescriptions.
 
Would people please just stop repeating some variation on "It's complicated" and never expanding on that?

There's an individual in front of me that has a penis and male chromosomal setup.

What, that isn't a purely invented societal standard, can make him more or less "male?"

How is masculinity/femininity functionally different from male/female in a way that is A) some statistically insignificant rare medical occurrence or B) something that's a not just a made up societal convention someone is trying to subvert?
 
I'm happy saying "masculinity" and "femininity" are the socially created judgements. For instance "pink for girls, blue for boys". "Arnold likes flower arranging - he's in touch with his feminine side".
 
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