Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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Here is a complete list of ALL the evidence Hank has posted at ISF


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/search.php?do=finduser&u=54534

Have at it!

Actually, that's only a small subset, as this current thread has five predecessor threads of up to about 100 pages each, and I've been active since the first one back in 2011.

I'm not sure if I should marvel at how much I've posted on the subject or shudder at the thought of how much time I've wasted trying to convince people whose mantra is (or should be) "Don't confuse me with the facts. I know what I believe."

Hank
 
You know many things, Hank, but I’m still waiting for you to show me some evidence of Oswald killing JFK.

Half-way through your above post, you try to confuse the issue by combining a post I didn't write with one I did, then going back to stuff I did write. That won't work either.

A portion of the evidence is here: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/contents.htm

That's 27 separate books containing a summary (one book) and all the testimony and much of the evidence the Warren Commission saw and heard (26 volumes of testimony and evidence). Surely you're not asking me to type all that out for you?

This is all just more of the same conspiracy theorist playbook jive I've seen since the early 1990s when I first started discussing the assassination online.

Read all that and get back to me with any legitimate questions you have.

Right now, as I said, I find it difficult to take you serious as you've claimed
(1) you're familiar with all the evidence and arguments, and yet
(2) you claim you need me to spell it out for you.

If your first claim is true, the second claim is superfluous - you can just cut to the chase and tell us what you find compelling in believing Oswald is innocent, and cite the evidence for that.

I don't need to walk you through this, you said.
On the contrary, I’ve read just about everything there is.

Yet you want me to waste my time doing that exactly why?

It's in the conspiracy theorist playbook!

You really can't proceed any other way, can you?

Hank
 
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Not just Hank.

The Dallas Police know Oswald did it.
The FBI know Oswald did it.

Their files are all online now, and anyone can read them. I have read many of them including most of the last document dump.

We have stated the evidence repeatedly.

How about you tell us how Oswald is innocent, and who really killed JFK?

*no holding my breath*

I second or third the suggestion that manifesto read some of the history in these threads instead of asking for the same evidence to be posted again.

BTW I know LHO did it also.
 
I’m still waiting for you to present all this. One at a time.

The farce is strong with this one. Getting serious Robert Prey vibes now. Manifesto, you'd know what I'm talking about had you read the entire thread (and the predecessor threads) as you were advised.



2. If so, why couldn’t it have more innocent explanations, like Oswald presenting himself as a ”photographer” when looking for a job and applying for visas, etc? Walker was a ’celebrity’ in the South.

Called it!
I can see it now: Maybe Oswald was researching real estate in that neighborhood to buy Marina a home she deserved?



In that same thread, I also pointed out how this would proceed:
CTs like to pretend the burden of proof is on those of us who believe the lone assassin scenario. In truth, the burden is on them to overcome all the accumulated evidence. That's why they want to pretend it's an "innocent until proven guilty" or "beyond a reasonable doubt" argument. They can play at being a defense attorney and only have to try to poke holes in the arguments and evidence we present.

We know the playbook better than you do.

Hank
 
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Wow, you use the phrase "Steel Jacketted" as if it means something suspicious.
It means that it transformed from a steel-jacketed bullet to a copper-jacketed bullet while in DPD’s custody.

How come?

Shooting walker demonstrates his intent to kill someone high profile.
Because you just say so? Were is the evidence?

I'm sorry, I thought I was talking to a well-read assassination expert.

I'll slow down for you: The bad (Oswald) man shot the President and the policeman.
You did not State who you were refering to when you stated that Oswald had told Marina that he had shot ”him”. JFK or Tippit. Hense my question.

So, what ”statement” from Marina are you refering to here?

The question is if the three officers had ever seen a Carcano before 6/22/1963. The obvious answer is no.

Also, you haven't specified if the Mauser they saw was a rifle or a pistol, nor have you specified the model of Mauser they didn't actually see.

If you knew anything about these rifles you'd know they look similar.

For the record, Mauser rifles used 6.5x55mm rounds, not 6.5x52mm rounds.
The specified it as a Mauser rifle with a scope.

The crime of the century and three police officers get the brand of the rifle wrong? In written and signed affidavits? Then, after a good nights sleep, two of them suddely ”remember” much clearer that is was a Carcano rifle, while the third of them still remember a ”wrong” rifle?

Come on ... you are kidding ... ?!?

Oswald bought the rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods under the name A.Hidell, and had it shipped to a post office box( P.O. Box 2915) which was registered under his own name.
Did he? Evidence?

His wife took 3 photographs of him holding the rifle.
Did she? Evidence?

Oswald was seen at Sportsdome Gun Range in Grand Prairie, TX., by Howard Price, and Garland Slack (who fired from the next stall to Oswald), and Dr. Homer Wood and his son. He stood out because he had an Italian rifle.
While Oswald at the same time was in Mexico City, yes?

Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD at the time of the shooting.
Evidence?

Yes. No Mauser was found.

More to the point; there's no reason to lie about a second rifle being found on the 6th floor because at the time of the search nobody knew who they are looking for, nor how many suspects may have been responsible. This is why DPD detained a lot of men in the area right after the assassination. This is why DPD turned that building inside out on every floor.
One reason could be that the Mauser belonged to another employee and was not used in the assassination. Why they in that case chosed a Carcanao to frame Oswald and not another brand is beyond me. Maby they had that rifle laying around somewhere and found it conveniant, who knows.

The thing is, you can’t be sure, can you.

Shells were discovered by Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, who notified Capt. J. W. Fritz, chief of the homicide bureau of the Dallas Police Department, who stood over them ordering nothing to be disturbed until the crime lab guys could take photographs. Fritz then took custody of the shells and forwarded them to the FBI.

Fritz neglected to send all three. He left one in his coat pocket, but sent it to the FBI as soon as he discovered it.

All three casings had been ejected from the Carcano recovered on the same floor.
None of the shells have the correct signature on it. On top of that, there is two chains of custody, one going directly to Dallas FBI, one to Fritz at DPD.

It’s a mess.

Yes, without a doubt.
Evidence?

Yes, the bullet that hit JFK in the head shattered as evident in the photograph of the fragments you didn't bother to look at.
Eh .. what? I just told you that it was two big pieces of a bullet beneath the front seats belonging to the bullet that allegedly hit JFK in the back of the head, splittring in to two parts before landing on the floor.

In addition the were other much smaller fragments, in JFK and Connally, from their wounds.

If you look at the bullet recovered at Parkland you can where small fragments broke off on the nose and on the damaged under side.
The fragment in the nose was taken out after it was found by the FBI lab and the damaged underside could not be the source of all the fragments found.

The better question is why it wasn't lost in the first place.
No. Again. Do you have a chain of custody on this bullet?

The Carcano is accurate out to 1,000 yards, the 6.5x52mm round Oswald used were 160-grains, and moved at 2,700 feet per second. These bullets can penetrate four feet of Ponderosa Pine and two feet of Elm wood emerging undamaged. The length of the bullet makes it "over-stablized", meaning that after the first penetration they begin cartwheeling like helicopter blades, which would account for the smooth entry and exit through JFK's body and the nastier wounds Connally received from the same round.
Connallys entry wound in the back was almost round = no ”helicopter” bullet.

This is the fragment recovered from his wrist:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305166
Does it look small enough to have come from the bullets underside? There is also more than this. Some of it is still burried in Connallys thigh. More still if you count the missing evidence bags with additional bullet fragments.

The reality of the Carcano is that it was an over-powered weapon that had devastating effects on the men Oswald shot.
I’m not arguing the power of the weapon, am I?

The cop he was trying to kill got his hand on the weapon the instant Oswald pulled the trigger and stopped the hammer from striking with the webbing between his thumb and forefinger.

I thought you were a well-read expert.
The problem is that ”the cop” changed his story a couple of times, but I’m sure you know the correct one.

Do you?

His?

And these are all coming from Oswalds alleged revolver to the exclusion of all other revolvers?

William Scoggins,
Identified Oswald as the shooter of Tippit? Any quotes?

Domingo Benavides,
Did he now? Quotes?

Mrs. Helen Markham,
HM: I do not recognize anyone.

WC: What about number two ..?

HM: Yes, it was number two ... I said number two ...


Is this a good testimony from a trustworthy witness?

Barbara Jeanette and Virginia Davis
Quotes?

among others.
Others? Who?

Really, because only one other DPD officer was killed in the line of duty in 1963 (Ray Underwood). One was killed a year prior (Leonard C. Mullenax), and before that you have to go back to 1951(Johnny W. Sides).

Parkland logged around 400 gunshot wounds, most of those being accidental in nature.

Dallas was hardly the wild west in 1963, and only a fool would take on the cops when their blood is up like after the JFK shooting,
Still, it could have been for another reson. Maby he understod that he was being framed. The point is that the connection has to be shown, it can’t just be asumed.

That is IF he shot Tippit which I still awaiting evidence of.

Except that Oswald shot Tippit after killing JFK.
Which has to be proven one killing at a time, on its own merits.

He didn't have the pistol on him when the went to work.
How do you know he picked up a pistol while home changing clothes?

Just his rifle.
1. Evidence for carrying A rifle to work that day?

2. Evidence for it being HIS rifle?

What gun?

his place of employment,
Yes he worked at the TSBD but so did a lot of people.

eye-witnesses from the ground see him shoot,
Who saw him shoot? Quote.

and he's the only employee not accounted for after the shooting.
No. There were almost twenty employees missing when Oswald was ”found missing”. There never were a ”role call”, and people came and left as they pretty much pleased.

Because his gun didn't go off as planned. He obviously wanted to die by being shot by police, making him a Marxist revolutionary hero.
Fantasies abound. Why yelling that he did NOT resist arrest if he WANTED to be shot?

No. In 1963 this was an exotic case. In 2018, after years of lone men rampaging with guns Oswald hardly stands out as unique these days.
It doesn’t matter, your claim must be grounded in evidence.

Do you have any?

You argue chain of possession, yet ignore chain of events. Typical CT failure.
What? I’m asking you to provide any evidence for your claim of the chain of events, exactly.

Tons if you bother reading books not written by the delusional.
Good. I’m looking forward of seeing them for the first time. I have really been digging but found none.

Wow, I thought you were a well-read assassination expert.

On November 16, 1963, the Dallas Morning News reported the first details of the Kennedy motorcade, and while it didn't have detail the turn onto Elm Street, it did not that the cars world traverse Main Street. That day Oswald goes to the shooting range, and later that night he appears in the Alright Parking Garage which overlooks Main Street, and approaches an employee named Hubert Morrow.

Oswald asked Morrow if you could see Main Street from the roof. According to Morrow, Oswald was carrying his rifle wrapped in brown paper with the muzzle sticking out at the end. Oswald asked if he could check out the roof and was told to get lost. He came the next day to apply for a job at the garage with another employee, Viola Sapp.

Later Oswald applied fora job at the Adolphus Hotel on Commerce Street.
Was this at the same time that he was in Mexico City trying to get a visa to Cuba?

He denied everything, but he also lied about everything during his interrogation.
The same interrogations no one took notes on? Or used a tape recorder? The same?

What ”lies” did he tell?

Ruby was mafia in the same way Sinatra was mafia.
No. Sinatra was not a criminal. Ruby was and the liaison between the mob and the DPD in Dallas. Nobody is trying to argue against this well established fact these days.

Who was the first to visit him after he got arrested when silencing the patsy?

It's clear in the press footage that he's having a good time. The interviews with the Dallas Police after all indicate he was enjoying himself.
Is it? I see an innocent young dude trying to understand what is really happening to him.

Again, I thought you were a well-read assassination expert.

It's not a smear, it's fact.

When Oswald landed at Love Field upon his return from the Soviet Union the first thing he asked his mother was: "Where's the press", and then he pouted all the way home because nobody cared. He thought he'd be a celebrity in the Soviet Union, and was stuck at a television factory, and comes home thinking he'd make the front page only to find his mother.
Again, what is your source of this? Is it not remarkable that a defected Marine, expert in radar systems and proximity to CIA’s most top secret spy-planes (U-2) on the bases in Japan and the Phillipines, get his passport back and money from US Gov. to go back home with his russian wife and newborn baby? When threatening the staff on the US Embassy in Moscow of revealing everything he knows of military secrets to the Soviets?

And he doesn’t even get a, debriefing when arriving home?

Evidence?
Are you unavare of his massive plagiarism? That he had to ”leave” his job as chief investigator when he was found out?
 
Warren Report and 26 volumes of testimony and evidence.
HSCA Report and 12 volumes of testimony and evidence.

There's more, but that should be sufficient for starters.

Hank
So, you are saying that somewhere in these commissions reports there is actually evidence of Oswalds quilt?

Were?
 
So, you are saying that somewhere in these commissions reports there is actually evidence of Oswalds quilt?

I said nothing about Oswald's 'quilt'.
If you search for 'blanket' you might find some of my remarks however.

You asked for the accumulated evidence. I presented two sources. Now you want hand-holding again, after claiming you were well-read on the subject. Not going to happen.



I presume you mean 'where?' Too numerous to mention.

Remember: We are on to you.

JAQing off gets you nowhere here.

If you have an argument for Oswald's innocence, present it.

Hank
 
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Still, it could have been for another reson. Maby he understod that he was being framed.

And this is why conspiracy theorists such as yourself never get specific with a scenario. They can't come up with one that makes any sense.

So the best argument you can come up with for Oswald shooting Tippit is 'Oswald thought he was being framed for the assassination of JFK'?

Is that your final answer?

And instead of walking into a radio station or a television station or the Dallas Morning News or the Dallas Times Herald and say, "Have I got a story for you. I think I'm being framed for the assassination that just took place" he thinks his best approach -- his best approach, mind you -- is to kill someone else? Because that will convince everyone he's innocent of murder?

Is that really the best you can do?

Hank
 
The crime of the century and three police officers get the brand of the rifle wrong? In written and signed affidavits? Then, after a good nights sleep, two of them suddely ”remember” much clearer that is was a Carcano rifle, while the third of them still remember a ”wrong” rifle?

Can you name these three police officers and cite for their three signed affidavits?

Can you cite for two of them changing their mind overnight "after a good nights sleep"?

Remember that you told us this:
... the burden av proof lies with the indiviadual making a claim, a statement.

Burden of proof for your claims belongs with you.

Names and links to the affidavits, please.
Citations to where two of the three changed their mind the next day.

We'll wait.

Hank
 
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The CTist playbook must have been re-printed in Sweden for the new generation of folks with no training or experience in the subject matter but hold strong opinions on the subject.
 
Actually, that's only a small subset, as this current thread has five predecessor threads of up to about 100 pages each, and I've been active since the first one back in 2011.

I'm not sure if I should marvel at how much I've posted on the subject or shudder at the thought of how much time I've wasted trying to convince people whose mantra is (or should be) "Don't confuse me with the facts. I know what I believe."

Hank

Actually, that's not a thread I posted a link to, that's your entire posting history at JREF/ISF
 
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Actualy, that not a thread I posted a link to, that's your entire posting history at JREF/ISF

I don't see anything early than 2018. They appear to be in chronological order and none are earlier than January of 2018. There are only JFK-related posts from this thread and one immediately prior: "JFK Conspiracy Theories: Five for Fighting".

Nothing from the JFK-related threads prior to that.

Doing a quick search on the first thread on the JFK assassination,
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/search.php?searchid=4371171

I get exactly 275 found responses.... all from 2012 or 2013 and 275 is precisely the number I see from your search. It appears there's a max limit of 275 posts that's returned for an open-ended search like we're utilizing.

Here's my first post every on JREF/ISF:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7843394&postcount=2023

Hank
 
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Is it? I see an innocent young dude trying to understand what is really happening to him.

And there it is, sports fans.

I knew if I drew this guy out long enough he'd reveal himself, they always do.

I wonder if he thinks Anders Behring Breivik is innocent? Probably not because the man was a right-winger.

Oswald fancied himself a communist, which is at the root of most assassination CT's. They can't deal with a fellow Marxist wannabe killing JFK, and need to frame the right-wing for the killing.

He's not looking for evidence because he ignores the facts at hand. He's just another CT hack looking for a mystery where there isn't one.

This is comedy gold.
 
Are you unavare of his massive plagiarism? That he had to ”leave” his job as chief investigator when he was found out?

Chief Investigator of what?

The plagiarism was related to his books Miami Babylon and Secrets of the Kingdom and Why America Slept.

Posner hired Mark Lane to defend him in the lawsuit BTW.

For the record, I don't cite Posner because I don't have to. The Warren Commission and the thousands of documents available online speak for themselves.
 
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And there it is, sports fans.

I knew if I drew this guy out long enough he'd reveal himself, they always do.

I wonder if he thinks Anders Behring Breivik is innocent? Probably not because the man was a right-winger.

Oswald fancied himself a communist, which is at the root of most assassination CT's. They can't deal with a fellow Marxist wannabe killing JFK, and need to frame the right-wing for the killing.

He's not looking for evidence because he ignores the facts at hand. He's just another CT hack looking for a mystery where there isn't one.

This is comedy gold.
I see absolutely nothing of substance in this post. Do you have any EVIDENCE of Oswald killing JFK?
 
Chief Investigator of what?
The Daily Beast.

The plagiarism was related to his books Miami Babylon and Secrets of the Kingdom and Why America Slept.

Posner hired Mark Lane to defend him in the lawsuit BTW.

For the record, I don't cite Posner because I don't have to. The Warren Commission and the thousands of documents available online speak for themselves.
Good. Do you have any evidence of Oswald killing JFK?
 
Do you have any EVIDENCE of Oswald killing JFK?

► Oswald owned the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD on Friday afternoon, November 22, 1963. It had been fired and it was located in what appeared to be a sniper's nest.

► Oswald owned the handgun that was used in the murder of Officer J.D. Tippit.

► Oswald was positively identified by witness Howard L. Brennan as the person firing a rifle at JFK on 11/22/63. Brennan accurately described Oswald within minutes of the shooting, well before any pictures of him appear in newspapers or on the TV

► The trajectory of all of the shots were shown to have come from the TSBD.

► Marina Oswald admitted taking pictures of Oswald with these weapons on his person. The HSCA panel of photo experts vouched for those backyard pictures (and the autopsy photos and X-rays).

► Buell Frazier saw Oswald take a package into the TSBD on the morning of the assassination. Frazier said said he saw Oswald go in the back door at the loading dock with this package still under his arm. Oswald's claim that the package contained "curtain rods" was dismissed, as no curtain rods were ever found in the TSBD or at his residence.

► Oswald made a trip to Irving on the day before the assassination to retrieve his "curtain rods". His rifle is found missing from Ruth Paine's garage the following day. Interestingly, some curtain rods, which Mrs. Paine testified she DID have in her garage prior to the assassination were still in her garage after Nov 22.

► Oswald was seen working in the TSBD sixth floor that morning. He even asked a co-worker (Charles Givens) to send an elevator back up to him on the sixth floor shortly before the assassination. This places him alone on the sixth floor about 35 minutes before the shots were fired.

► Oswald's palm print was found on his 6.5 x 52 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination.

► The alias "A.J. Hidell" that Oswald used to purchase the rifle was proved to be Oswald, and the order form from Klein's Sporting Goods was proven to be in Oswald's handwriting, and sent to his Dallas PO Box.

► All the bullets and bullet fragments found came from Oswald's Carncano; the intact bullet was ballistically matched, the fragments were metallurgically matched. Despite extensive searches, NO other bullets or bullet fragments were found anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims.

► The vast majority of Dealey Plaza ear-witnesses said shots came from behind the President, in the direction of the TSBD. An even greater number of witnesses said they heard EXACTLY three shots; no more, no less.

► A witness (Harold Norman) on the 5th floor SE corner directly below the snipers nest, heard the shots, the bolt action being worked and the empty shell casings landing on the floor above him. Three spent shell casings, all 6.5 x 52mm were found in the sniper's nest.

► EVERY ONE of the newsmen and reporters riding in the motorcade in Dealey Plaza, who were in a position to immediately report the shooting to the world via media outlets (radio, television, and newswire services), heard EXACTLY THREE SHOTS FIRED.

► Oswald left behind his wedding ring and just about every penny he had (about $170) on the morning of 11/22/63. This implies that Oswald didn't think he was coming home from work on November 22.

► Oswald was the only TSBD employee known to have been inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination, known to have left work early on the day of the assassination... the only employee known to be missing after it was locked down.

► Oswald attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, on April 10, 1963 using the same Carnano rifle he used to kill JFK.

► Demonstrations done by the Warren Commission proved that Oswald could have travelled, in 90 seconds or less, the distance across the sixth floor of the TSBD and descended the four flights of stairs in time to have been seen by policeman Marrion L. Baker in the lunch room on the second floor.

► No other weapons or firing positions were ever found. No eyewitnesses to any other shooters were found. No other credible suspects have been located in the 55 years since the assassination.


Enough for ya!?
 
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