You missed the point Hank. Innocense is default, hense no need to argue. You are the one making a positive statement = Oswald killed JFK.
It’s ok if you have no evidence backing this claim, just say so.
Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge
- Thread starter BStrong
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It’s ok if you have no evidence backing this claim, just say so.
So, instead of providing facts and good arguments, you smear your opponent?
Is this ”Scientific Skepticism”?
I’m not the one making a claim. ”Hank” is claiming that Oswald killed JFK.
I’m still waiting for his reason/s to make this claim. Like, evidence.
Are you defending Hanks claim? Do you have some evidence?
In this thread and others on ISF, Hank has posted hundreds of times detailing the evidence he believes points to Oswald's guilt. Instead of asking him to re-post what he's already said, why don't you review this thread and point to instances where you believe that Hank got it wrong?
I’m not keen on looking for supporting evidence of Hank’s claims. If he have any, he should present them here and now.
It’s not my job.
Why do you think you can jump into this list and make Hank dance to your tune? Some on this list, including Hank, have been discussing these issues for years. You can have the benefit of reviewing his detailed, thoughtful arguments at your leisure, if you're really interested in what he has to say.
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
And it's not anyone else's job to hold your hand through the same jive "anybody but LHO" routine you've been posting since the day you joined.
I don't care what your view is from Sweden. I went to the 6th floor museum and have seen it for myself. I've spent a lifetime behind a rifle and served 15 years as a LEO and 6 years in the Army.
Whatever fantasy construct you can come up with doesn't outweigh reality - successful grand conspiracy only exists in popular fiction. Take a marginal personality and add a firearm, tragedy can be and now often is the natural result. LHO would fit right in with every school shooter/cluster homicide mental defective that we have in evidence in America today.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Wow, you use the phrase "Steel Jacketted" as if it means something suspicious.
Shooting walker demonstrates his intent to kill someone high profile.
I'm sorry, I thought I was talking to a well-read assassination expert.
I'll slow down for you: The bad (Oswald) man shot the President and the policeman.
The question is if the three officers had ever seen a Carcano before 6/22/1963. The obvious answer is no.
Also, you haven't specified if the Mauser they saw was a rifle or a pistol, nor have you specified the model of Mauser they didn't actually see.
If you knew anything about these rifles you'd know they look similar.
For the record, Mauser rifles used 6.5x55mm rounds, not 6.5x52mm rounds.
Oswald bought the rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods under the name A.Hidell, and had it shipped to a post office box( P.O. Box 2915) which was registered under his own name.
His wife took 3 photographs of him holding the rifle.
Oswald was seen at Sportsdome Gun Range in Grand Prairie, TX., by Howard Price, and Garland Slack (who fired from the next stall to Oswald), and Dr. Homer Wood and his son. He stood out because he had an Italian rifle.
Oswald was on the 6th floor of the TSBD at the time of the shooting.
Yes. No Mauser was found.
More to the point; there's no reason to lie about a second rifle being found on the 6th floor because at the time of the search nobody knew who they are looking for, nor how many suspects may have been responsible. This is why DPD detained a lot of men in the area right after the assassination. This is why DPD turned that building inside out on every floor.
Shells were discovered by Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, who notified Capt. J. W. Fritz, chief of the homicide bureau of the Dallas Police Department, who stood over them ordering nothing to be disturbed until the crime lab guys could take photographs. Fritz then took custody of the shells and forwarded them to the FBI.
Fritz neglected to send all three. He left one in his coat pocket, but sent it to the FBI as soon as he discovered it.
All three casings had been ejected from the Carcano recovered on the same floor.
Yes, without a doubt.
Yes, the bullet that hit JFK in the head shattered as evident in the photograph of the fragments you didn't bother to look at.
If you look at the bullet recovered at Parkland you can where small fragments broke off on the nose and on the damaged under side.
The better question is why it wasn't lost in the first place.
The Carcano is accurate out to 1,000 yards, the 6.5x52mm round Oswald used were 160-grains, and moved at 2,700 feet per second. These bullets can penetrate four feet of Ponderosa Pine and two feet of Elm wood emerging undamaged. The length of the bullet makes it "over-stablized", meaning that after the first penetration they begin cartwheeling like helicopter blades, which would account for the smooth entry and exit through JFK's body and the nastier wounds Connally received from the same round.
This is the fragment recovered from his wrist:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305166
The reality of the Carcano is that it was an over-powered weapon that had devastating effects on the men Oswald shot.
The cop he was trying to kill got his hand on the weapon the instant Oswald pulled the trigger and stopped the hammer from striking with the webbing between his thumb and forefinger.
I thought you were a well-read expert.
His .38:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305138
The bullets recovered from Tippit's body:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305156
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305157
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305158
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305159
These are the spent cartridges:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305155
William Scoggins, Domingo Benavides, Mrs. Helen Markham, Barbara Jeanette and Virginia Davis among others.
Really, because only one other DPD officer was killed in the line of duty in 1963 (Ray Underwood). One was killed a year prior (Leonard C. Mullenax), and before that you have to go back to 1951(Johnny W. Sides).
Parkland logged around 400 gunshot wounds, most of those being accidental in nature.
Dallas was hardly the wild west in 1963, and only a fool would take on the cops when their blood is up like after the JFK shooting,
Except that Oswald shot Tippit after killing JFK.
He didn't have the pistol on him when the went to work. Just his rifle.
His gun, his place of employment, eye-witnesses from the ground see him shoot, and he's the only employee not accounted for after the shooting.
Because his gun didn't go off as planned. He obviously wanted to die by being shot by police, making him a Marxist revolutionary hero.
No. In 1963 this was an exotic case. In 2018, after years of lone men rampaging with guns Oswald hardly stands out as unique these days.
You argue chain of possession, yet ignore chain of events. Typical CT failure.
Tons if you bother reading books not written by the delusional.
Wow, I thought you were a well-read assassination expert.
On November 16, 1963, the Dallas Morning News reported the first details of the Kennedy motorcade, and while it didn't have detail the turn onto Elm Street, it did not that the cars world traverse Main Street. That day Oswald goes to the shooting range, and later that night he appears in the Alright Parking Garage which overlooks Main Street, and approaches an employee named Hubert Morrow.
Oswald asked Morrow if you could see Main Street from the roof. According to Morrow, Oswald was carrying his rifle wrapped in brown paper with the muzzle sticking out at the end. Oswald asked if he could check out the roof and was told to get lost. He came the next day to apply for a job at the garage with another employee, Viola Sapp.
Later Oswald applied fora job at the Adolphus Hotel on Commerce Street.
He denied everything, but he also lied about everything during his interrogation.
Ruby was mafia in the same way Sinatra was mafia.
It's clear in the press footage that he's having a good time. The interviews with the Dallas Police after all indicate he was enjoying himself.
Again, I thought you were a well-read assassination expert.
It's not a smear, it's fact.
When Oswald landed at Love Field upon his return from the Soviet Union the first thing he asked his mother was: "Where's the press", and then he pouted all the way home because nobody cared. He thought he'd be a celebrity in the Soviet Union, and was stuck at a television factory, and comes home thinking he'd make the front page only to find his mother.
Evidence?
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Why should I try to look for support to my opponents claims? Claims I do not agree with?
Alice in wonderland?
Wow. Is this a threat?
But you do not get it, do you? I’m not stating anything of this, I’m asking Hank to support his claim that Oswald killed JFK.
Why should I search for evidence supporting Hanks claims? Claims I oppose?
Axxman300
Philosopher
Not a smear - a fact.
Some are emotionally disturbed. Some blame JFK's death for Vietnam, which only makes sense if you smoke a lot of dope. The rest are nothing more than glorified Carnies and Snake Oil salesmen.
Their research hinges on hearsay from questionable people and downright liars.
The assassination is nothing more than a parlor game. For some it gives their lives meaning, for others it gives them a chance to have their name mentioned in the same sentence as JFK (just like Oswald), and the rest are just in it to make an easy buck of the dufusses of the world.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Not just Hank.
The Dallas Police know Oswald did it.
The FBI know Oswald did it.
Their files are all online now, and anyone can read them. I have read many of them including most of the last document dump.
We have stated the evidence repeatedly.
How about you tell us how Oswald is innocent, and who really killed JFK?
*no holding my breath*
Axxman300
Philosopher
No. It speaks to credibility, something you currently lack.
The evidence is already posted in the many threads on this subject.
You have to defend your assertion that Oswald is innocent.
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
I have no direct evidence of any kind related to the events being discussed here, and I am not here to present any.
You claim to have read extensively on this topic, therefore you have seen the evidence that has been presented by others. I gather you disagree with it. Has your disagreement caused you to come up with any thoughts on the events of that day besides "there is no evidence"?
As I posted previously, evidence, guilt or innocence does not interest me. I have seen the narrative that includes Oswald's participation. I am looking forward to reading a narrative of the events of that day that do (may) not require Oswald's participation. I had hoped that MicahJava would provide that but he seems reluctant. Do you have any thoughts on that?
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Yes, you're the one claiming that Oswald didn't do it, despite the consilience of diverse evidence that points only to him. Hank (no need for scare quotes--that's his name) has discussed much of this in the past couple of years on this list. If you believe that Oswald didn't do it, you've got the burden of overturning this strong consilience. But you won't do it by micro-disputing this bit and that, but rather by presenting a contrary scenario that is at least as well supported as the case against Oswald. Can you do that?
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
It's called establishing credentials.
I've investigated violent crimes that were concluded with convictions using my testimony and technical examinations of the firearm(s) used to commit the criminal act . I've trained officers in marksmanship with handguns, shotguns, SMG's, carbines and precision rifles, not just in my agency but other LE agencies through programs intended to exchange professional knowledge. I attended and graduated from FLETC ( Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) in various courses involving firearms, ballistics, tool and die marks, etc.
What to you is a world unknown is something that I've lived in the majority of my life, because before I ever did any of those things I was my father's son - he did pretty much everything I've ever done but under much harsher conditions and I grew up in a gunshop/indoor rifle range. I remember everything that happened on November 22, 1963. Below is a thread I started in 2012 on my pov of the assassination as an adult and my families pov at the time of the assassination
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241375
You'll need to excuse me from your particular version of JAQing off. There isn't one piece of hard evidence that I've reviewed (Rifle, the mechanics of the actual shooting, ballistic evidence) and the supporting evidence of LHO's behavior that leads me to believe that there's some conspiracy and shooter(s) of unknown origin responsible - loser with a rifle explains JFK, and loser confronted by LEO after JFK explains J.D. Tippet.
If you want fiction, read James Ellroy and forget the CTist book club. He has a better, more entertaining explanation than any of them do, and he has a sense of humor besides:
We've had an ongoing argument over the assassination - the above is the third volume of his Underworld USA trilogy where he retells the assassinations of JFK, MLK and RFK. He signed this to me but he had to break my balls about Carlos - he thinks he was behind the assassination, but I've explained to him more than once that Carlos got more by "knowing how everbody liked they coffee" than by hitting enemies, but there you go.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Read the thread. Let me know if you have any legitimate questions when you're done.
What I said was: "The evidence accumulated in multiple investigations points to Oswald and no one else."
Like this one, for starters: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/contents.htm
When you're done with the Report and the 26 volumes and this thread, I'll be happy to answer any leegitimate questions you have about Oswald's guilt or innocence. But as long as you profess to being unaware of *any* evidence of his guilt, I cannot believe you are serious.
Hank
HSienzant
Philosopher
You claimed to be well-read on the subject, then you claim that I need to respond to you personally with the evidence. Those claims contradict each other.
Hank
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Here is a complete list of ALL the evidence Hank has posted at ISF
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/search.php?do=finduser&u=54534
Have at it!
HSienzant
Philosopher
Another logical fallacy. This is a straw man argument.
He asked you to read my prior posts and tell us what I got wrong, not what I got right. Nor did he ask you to support my claims. Just the opposite.
But then, in a later post, you double-down on this false construct and again pretend you were asked to support my claims. You weren't.
I pointed out you should avoid logical fallacies in a prior post.
The advice still stands.
If you can't rebut the points, just say so. Pretending someone made a point that they didn't make and rebutting that straw man point isn't going to work here.
Hank
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Even Bob Baer, a-dyed-in-the-wool conspiracy theorist who believes that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK (and suspects that the Cuban government were behind it) has still come overwhelmingly to the conclusion that, at least in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter.
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