Who determines the number of genders- and how?

[Rolfe]

It's not a quote, it's a characterization of this story posted by you...

It's a cariacature of the story I described. Why would you want to do that I wonder? In what I read, the girl did not describe what she did with the "lesbian man", and certainly not in the salacious terms you chose.

Having sexual intercourse with a lesbian is standard heterosexual male fantasy porn.

So I believe. That makes every story from a lesbian about being pressurised by men in dresses who believe they have a right to have "lesbian sex" with their lady dicks fantasy, does it? I've read way too much of this, from both ends as it were, and as I said some of it from someone I know in real life, to sustain that view.

 

[Rolfe]

As the proud mother of a trans daughter, this thread disappoints me hugely. She no more chose to be transgender than any of you choose to be cisgender. It's just what she's been all her life, and has finally been able to act on in the past few years. She's an adult, and would have been much happier if she could have started taking androgen-blockers before puberty started, but the view at the time was to do nothing, not even reversible hormone-blocking, until adulthood.

Please try to remember that you're talking about real people, not just cardboard characters and it's extremely painful for some of us listening to your hatred.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I've never disputed that there are children with genuine gender dysphoria which doesn't go away and who need to transition for their own health and happiness. But the topic goes way beyond that small number of people, and it's not possible to refrain from discussing the implications because it's genuinely upsetting for some people. Obviously, by definition, your child does not have autogynaephilia. This is part of the problem with wrapping up all types of gender dysphoria as if they were one thing, and discussion of one presentation (AGP) is wrongly taken to heart by people who do not have AGP and whose loved ones do not have AGP.

If it's any help, it seems to be becoming more and more clear that trans people of both sexes have a much greater chance of good health in the long term if they went through normal puberty appropriate to their sex, even if the cosmetic results are less satisfactory. Your child may come to be very thankful that androgen blockers weren't available sooner, as the consequences for children like Jazz Jennings are followed through.

In fact your child is likely to be one of those badly disadvantaged by what is going on, as women become more and more suspicious of masculine-looking "women" no matter what their backgrounds. Butch-presenting lesbians are also in danger in that respect.

Also, bear in mind that many people regard the term "cis" as grossly offensive. We are women, and putting a qualifier on that does not go down well with a lot of us.

 

[cullennz]

Having sexual intercourse with a lesbian is standard heterosexual male fantasy porn.

Nah

2 lesbians

 

[tyr_13]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I've never disputed that there are children with genuine gender dysphoria which doesn't go away and who need to transition for their own health and happiness. But the topic goes way beyond that small number of people, and it's not possible to refrain from discussing the implications because it's genuinely upsetting for some people. Obviously, by definition, your child does not have autogynaephilia. This is part of the problem with wrapping up all types of gender dysphoria as if they were one thing, and discussion of one presentation (AGP) is wrongly taken to heart by people who do not have AGP and whose loved ones do not have AGP.

The topic of the thread is not 'autogynaephilia'. Nothing from the post you quoted indicates that's what they were talking about.

If it's any help, it seems to be becoming more and more clear that trans people of both sexes have a much greater chance of good health in the long term if they went through normal puberty appropriate to their sex, even if the cosmetic results are less satisfactory.

Citation for this and the '90% grow out of it' claim? My understanding was that less than that percentage come to reject transition surgery, not other treatments.

The results are also more than cosmetic.

Your child may come to be very thankful that androgen blockers weren't available sooner, as the consequences for children like Jazz Jennings are followed through.

In fact your child is likely to be one of those badly disadvantaged by what is going on, as women become more and more suspicious of masculine-looking "women" no matter what their backgrounds. Butch-presenting lesbians are also in danger in that respect.

Also, bear in mind that many people regard the term "cis" as grossly offensive. We are women, and putting a qualifier on that does not go down well with a lot of us.

Some people need to get over the fact that they could in fact be a subset requiring a qualifier for clarity in certain contexts, and it's not possible to refrain from discussing the implications because it's genuinely upsetting for some people.

 

[cullennz]

Some people need to get over the fact that they could in fact be a subset requiring a qualifier for clarity in certain contexts.....

That will open a can of worms

 

[thaiboxerken]

As the proud mother of a trans daughter, this thread disappoints me hugely. She no more chose to be transgender than any of you choose to be cisgender. It's just what she's been all her life, and has finally been able to act on in the past few years. She's an adult, and would have been much happier if she could have started taking androgen-blockers before puberty started, but the view at the time was to do nothing, not even reversible hormone-blocking, until adulthood.

Please try to remember that you're talking about real people, not just cardboard characters and it's extremely painful for some of us listening to your hatred.

It is sad that many, many people just hate transgender people and make lots of excuses for that hate. I guess lots of people never mature as they age. I'm disappointed that there are such people in this forum.

 

[Meadmaker]

Re: the OP.


(I haven't read the thread.)



There are two genders.


There are many ways in which characteristics of those two genders are manifested in individual human beings. Far too many way to enumerate.


ETA: I went back and read the thread. Rolfe is right, about everything.

Well, to be fair, she might not be right about non-AGP gender dysphoria, and about what the best course of action would be in which cases. It's hard to say what is "best" in every case, so I don't know.

 

[kellyb]

And yet a friend of mine who transitioned 20 years ago (not the cotton ceiling creep I mentioned above) is quite obviously autogynaephilic but has never disrespected women or been at all aggressive in women's company. Trans defenders often say, you think all trans people are - perverts, or whatever the conversation is about, but that's not so. However the perverts exist and they are dangerous, and they don't come with a big label so we can tell them apart from the others.

I also have a (very close since we were teens) friend who's trans in one of the more traditional senses, and is in all areas of life the opposite of an aggressive, predatory weirdo. But denial of the fact that the latter type exists isn't doing any favors for the former or for women who aren't trans.

 

[kellyb]

That will open a can of worms

I think the can has already been opened. lol

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

As the proud mother of a trans daughter, this thread disappoints me hugely. She no more chose to be transgender than any of you choose to be cisgender. It's just what she's been all her life, and has finally been able to act on in the past few years. She's an adult, and would have been much happier if she could have started taking androgen-blockers before puberty started, but the view at the time was to do nothing, not even reversible hormone-blocking, until adulthood.

Please try to remember that you're talking about real people, not just cardboard characters and it's extremely painful for some of us listening to your hatred.

I think you are responding to things people haven't said.

In regards to "reversable hormone-blocking", I think it is unfortunately being promoted ahead of research based evidence. From the recent systematic review:

This is the first systematic review of the effects of hormonal treatment in transgender youth; authors of previous systematic reviews in this field, including those commissioned by the recent Endocrine Society Clinical Practice Guidelines, focused on the use of GAHs in adults.

...

The findings from this review are subject to limitations. Firstly, the current literature has a limited number of studies in which the different hormonal treatments in transgender youth is examined. Secondly, for any given class of hormonal treatments, there is a variety of different agents, formulations, and administration routes that are being used clinically in transgender youth. For example, the physical effects of 1 antiandrogen and 1 progestin have been studied in only 1 study each, with no confirmation of results or further exploration. Thirdly, in existing studies there is a medium to high risk of bias, given small sample sizes, retrospective nature, and lack of long-term follow-up. In this regard, although randomized controlled trials are often considered gold standard evidence for judging clinical interventions, it should be noted that, in the context of GD in which current guidelines highlight the important role of hormonal treatments,15 conducting such trials would raise significant ethical and feasibility concerns. Fourthly, authors of existing studies have neglected several key outcomes. These include the following: psychological symptoms related to GD, which is a critical knowledge gap given the high rates of mental health problems observed in transgender youth and justification of these treatments as treating GD*42; the impact of hormonal treatments on fertility, which is an integral part of the counseling recommended by current guidelines*15; and potential adverse effects such as arterial hypertension, which was reported in a recent case series in association with GnRHas.*

Finally, there are no known studies to date in which researchers have reported the rates and circumstances under which transgender youth cease their hormonal therapy in an unplanned manner or the risk of subsequent regret, which would be of great clinical utility.

Notwithstanding these limitations, collectively, the studies reviewed provide qualified support for the use of GnRHas, GAHs, cyproterone acetate and, to a lesser extent, lynestrenol in transgender youth. Overall, these hormonal treatments appear to provide some therapeutic benefits in terms of physical effects and are generally well-tolerated on the basis of current evidence.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29514975

While it seems rational in hindsight for a "persister", what are the effects on the majority that end up "desister"?

The majority of gender dysphoric prepubertal youth will no longer meet the mental health criteria for gender dysphoria once puberty has begun, likely reflecting the heterogenous nature of this group2,7,8,37). Investigators have attempted to identify factors that predict gender dysphoria "persisters" versus "desisters"38). Persisters reported relatively greater degrees of gender dysphoria and were more likely to have experienced social transition (to their affirmed gender) during childhood38). In addition, persisters believed they "were" the other sex, while desisters "wished they were" the other sex38). The limitations in prediction of persistence, coupled with the observation that most gender dysphoric children will not become transgender adolescents or adults, have led some investigators and/or practitioners to promote efforts to encourage gender dysphoric children to accept their natal gender39). In contrast, a model of care that "affirms" a child's gender expression is thought to have a more optimal mental health outcome1,40). Long-term outcomes studies are needed to resolve these differences in approach to the care of gender dysphoric pre-pubertal youth.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290172/

There is just so much that we don't know, but are leaping forward with.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I am currently of the position that the current self-proclaimed transgender movement is a doppelganger that is actually anti-transgender. That is, the "tucutes" and "transtrenders" and their social justice allies who claim biological sex is a social construct and gender identity can be anything at all are interlopers and hijackers whose claims are actually contrary to the needs and experiences of actually transgender people. If biological sex is a social construct, there are no gendered traits, and gender dysphoria is "transmedicalization", then why transition? If we agree gender is a social construct, how then can any self identification be valid, when it is not socially or culturally recognized?

It is funny how I was involved in the LGBT political scene a decade ago, but now I see it as overrun with gibberish. Straight women claiming to be "demisexual genderfluid" somehow became the LGBT vanguard in the social justice ideology lecturing us about "they/them" pronouns. All the Tumblr and Twitter users who can't stand to be boring and normal... God, it's like I've become a conservative ranting about the youth of today.

 

[kellyb]

I am currently of the position that the current self-proclaimed transgender movement is a doppelganger that is actually anti-transgender. That is, the "tucutes" and "transtrenders" and their social justice allies who claim biological sex is a social construct and gender identity can be anything at all are interlopers and hijackers whose claims are actually contrary to the needs and experiences of actually transgender people. If biological sex is a social construct, there are no gendered traits, and gender dysphoria is "transmedicalization", then why transition? If we agree gender is a social construct, how then can any self identification be valid, when it is not socially or culturally recognized?

It is funny how I was involved in the LGBT political scene a decade ago, but now I see it as overrun with gibberish. Straight women claiming to be "demisexual genderfluid" somehow became the LGBT vanguard in the social justice ideology lecturing us about "they/them" pronouns. All the Tumblr and Twitter users who can't stand to be boring and normal... God, it's like I've become a conservative ranting about the youth of today.

Wow, yes. It was about a decade ago that I noticed the toxic shift towards angry expressions of utter nonsense happening there, too.

Someday the "historical sociology" graduates are going to have a lot of fun writing essays about the 2 decades of 2005-2025.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know why I'm perennially surprised by the sheer number of right-on lefty dudebros, as well as straight-up right-wing misogynists, who pile into these discussions mansplaining to women what it is to be a woman, and sporting their woke credentials by telling women they have to budge up and make room for men in dresses because they sure as hell won't make a safe space in men's designated accommodation for them. Men support other men in their desire to oppress women. There's actually nothing surprising about this at all.

 

[Rolfe]

Some people need to get over the fact that they could in fact be a subset requiring a qualifier for clarity in certain contexts, and it's not possible to refrain from discussing the implications because it's genuinely upsetting for some people.

The word for woman is woman. It doesn't need any qualifiers to be entirely clear.

 

[shuttlt]

Wow, yes. It was about a decade ago that I noticed the toxic shift towards angry expressions of utter nonsense happening there, too.

Someday the "historical sociology" graduates are going to have a lot of fun writing essays about the 2 decades of 2005-2025.

History is written by the winners. Maybe this will be seen as another step towards liberation?

 

[Rolfe]

I think you are responding to things people haven't said.

In regards to "reversable hormone-blocking", I think it is unfortunately being promoted ahead of research based evidence. From the recent systematic review:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29514975

While it seems rational in hindsight for a "persister", what are the effects on the majority that end up "desister"?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290172/

There is just so much that we don't know, but are leaping forward with.

That highlighted part is really important in the light of recent developments.

Studies carried out a decade or more ago show that about 80% to 90% of non gender conforming children grow out of it, usually when going through puberty. It also appears that there is no reliable way to tell which are the ones who will persist. There's a lot about that in the Bailey and Blanchard article I linked to above. However, what is now happening is that these children are being socially transitioned as soon as they express a preference for the wrong toys, and then put on puberty blockers with the assurance that these are "fully reversible".

The problem is that they're not harmless, as you point out, with implications for bone density, IQ level and possibly even later cancer risk, but nobody has followed this up. (In contrast, women having a difficult menopause now find it almost impossible to access HRT because of a huge study that was done after the treatment was in widespread use which showed a small statistical increase in the risk of certain types of breast cancer.) And the other problem is that when the children are given these drugs, they don't desist. Not going through puberty prevents the brain maturing and sorting this stuff out. Nearly all children put on puberty blockers now are progressing to cross-sex hormones. Which will sterilise them and cause absolutely irreversible changes to their bodies.

Twenty, even ten years ago, when sex reassignment was something only embarked on after a lot of assessment and soul-searching to try to be sure it was the right thing for the individual, regret and detransition were extremely rare. Some therapists working in the field had never seen a case. Now, however, there is a sharp increase in regret and detransition.

These stories can be found on the internet. Some are men who realised that living as a woman hadn't solved all their problems and indeed had created more, and decided to stop "living a lie". Most of the recent cases seem to be young women who were adamant that they were boys as adolescents but realised some years later that they really weren't. They're now trying to be women, but with baritone voices, beards, double mastectomies and male pattern baldness.

One academic at Bath Spa university noticed this trend and wanted to study it in more detail. He was shut down by the university after a campaign by trans rights activists. His crowdfunding page is here, https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/free-speech-matters-round2/, and just google "Bath Spa university transgender" to find a ton of articles about the case.

What is happening is that trans rights activists are absolutely adamant that nobody desists after identifying as trans, and that any research into possible desistence is transphobic, aimed at deterring people from identifying as trans. They are an extremely powerful lobby group, having influenced a lot of what is now going on in politics and medicine. They co-ordinate to bombard any organisation seen to be co-operating with people they don't like with allegations of transphobia and hate speech, and if Bath Spa university has caved, who won't? (Certainly not Milwall football club, who were warned by the women's organisation who booked a room for a meeting that they would probably be targeted, said "don't worry, we won't give in," then cancelled the booking after experiencing a torrent of furious complaints. "We've never seen anything like it.")

Powerful hormones are being given to children with no long-term follow-up and no hard information about risks of such things as cancer or osteoporosis in later life. Even proposing to research these potential risks is hounded as transphobic. The ostensible reason is, "If we don't give the children the hormones they'll kill themselves," which is absolutely false (see statistics on known patterns of desistance) and against every recommendation by organisations such as the Samaritans who deal with vulnerable suicidal groups. It has got to the point where children are crying that they must have the hormones because they've been told (by Mermaids and other trans-youth organisations) that they'll kill themselves if they don't get them, and they don't want to kill themselves! (Some of these children are probably using the threat of suicide to get what they want, but others are genuinely scared of becoming suicidal because of what they're being told.)

This is one hell of a mess and the only people who will do well out of the fall-out are the lawyers.

 

[Meadmaker]

I am currently of the position that the current self-proclaimed transgender movement is a doppelganger that is actually anti-transgender. That is, the "tucutes" and "transtrenders" and their social justice allies who claim biological sex is a social construct and gender identity can be anything at all are interlopers and hijackers whose claims are actually contrary to the needs and experiences of actually transgender people. If biological sex is a social construct, there are no gendered traits, and gender dysphoria is "transmedicalization", then why transition? If we agree gender is a social construct, how then can any self identification be valid, when it is not socially or culturally recognized?

It is funny how I was involved in the LGBT political scene a decade ago, but now I see it as overrun with gibberish. Straight women claiming to be "demisexual genderfluid" somehow became the LGBT vanguard in the social justice ideology lecturing us about "they/them" pronouns. All the Tumblr and Twitter users who can't stand to be boring and normal... God, it's like I've become a conservative ranting about the youth of today.

 

[Rolfe]

More on desistance.

Discussion boards are full of stories from women in middle-age or older who were extreme tomboys in their childhood but were left alone and grew out of it. It's something that has been common for many years, for example "George" in the Famous Five stories. These women look at what is happening now with personal horror, knowing that if they were in their adolescence now they'd be on testosterone and having their breasts surgically removed. Butch lesbians in particular are upset because they see their younger counterparts being transitioned.

Mothers of ROGD girls are talking a lot about how to handle it. One such mother, Lily Maynard, has blogged extensively about this and her daughter Jess, who realised after several months of insisting she was "Jake" that this simply wasn't true, has also written about it. Jess has a friend, Hazel, who insisted she was a boy for two years but grew out of it, and it was possibly Hazel's desistence that snapped Jess out of it. The whole thing is heavily influenced by social contagion.

Of course the desisters are also on the internet, and often confront the trans rights activists who say they don't exist. The excuse always comes, "you weren't really trans in the first place." (One school of thought says that ROGD isn't "really trans" by definition, being more akin to anorexia nervosa, and as a lot of desisters are ROGD there may be a lot of truth in this.) One man who has written a lot about reverting to being a man after many years of living as a woman points to his then-undiagnosed dissociative personality disorder as the underlying cause of his gender dysphoria and notes that when that was finally diagnosed and treated the gender dysphoria resolved. He is also accused of being "not really trans" even though he had surgery.

There's a huge paradox here. The activists insist that every child or adolescent who appears non gender conforming should be taken at their word and fast-tracked to transition without any "intrusive" gatekeeping or psychological examinations. To do otherwise is "conversion therapy" and transphobic. But then when some of these children realise they made a huge mistake and say so, they're "never trans to begin with." How the hell can you tell, if every child has to be taken at their word with no evaluation?

And, sadly, this is all about validating autogynaephilic males who long to have been teenage girls when they were teenagers, although at the time they were perfectly normal boys. But in retrospect they've decided they were "always" women. "I was never a man," says a guy with three ex-wives, six children and a clutch of Olympic medals in men's sports. So the pressure is on to smooth the way for every little boy who likes sparkly unicorns to turn into a girl, and every adolescent girl who hates her emerging female body to have testosterone and a mastectomy.

The lawyers are going to have a field day.

 

[Rolfe]

And on the horrors of transitioning small boys to become small girls, focussing on the horror show that is "I am Jazz".

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/04/21220/

The idea of course is that if a boy doesn't go through male puberty the eventual cosmetic result of female hormones and feminisation surgery will be better. However the damage this is doing to these children's bodies is incalculable.

 

[Rolfe]

One of the main centres of this "lesbian radical feminist" discourse is actually Mumsnet. I have read several highly informative threads on there, and I started reading this one last night.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212371-Where-are-all-the-trans-men-An-Answer

In it a "trans man", that is a woman who had sex reassignment at least 40 years ago, and is now one of the prominent voices pushing the trans agenda, shows up to debate with the Mumsnetters. This is interesting and unusual because most of the trans rights activists are men who want to be women. Even more interesting, in the middle of it, a male-to-female transsexual shows up arguing on the same side as the women.

Worth a look.