Who determines the number of genders- and how?

[Rolfe]

Ah, you haven't actually been reading this thread. That explains a great deal.

 

[Stout]

Surely every such liberalisation is an individual case? Just because a group has approved of/benefited from some past liberalisation doesn’t obligate them to approve of all future ones.

No, I guess it doesn't, but it is interesting to see the oppressed becoming the oppressors

 

[shuttlt]

What privileges would that be? Getting access to the Ladies room so they can tinkle?

Isn’t there lots of funding and associated organisations, support and opportunities targeted exclusively at women? Where I work there seem to be “getting women into management” events all the time and attempts to specifically recruit and promote women. In sports women have their own special events to avoid them having to compete with men.

 

[pharphis]

How could these autogynaphaelic folks be prevented from entering ladies' rooms if other women don't even know they are men until genitals appear?

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

Can someone define this term for me? Somehow I'm very confused about it

 

[Rolfe]

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

 

[shuttlt]

No, I guess it doesn't, but it is interesting to see the oppressed becoming the oppressors

I’m not sure that that is a helpful way to talk about it. Oppressor/oppressed kind of builds in who the good guys and who the bad guys are, or that there are good guys and bad guys at all.

 

[William Parcher]

There's a more credible story around from a young lesbian who was seeking out sex partners using the internet in her early sexual explorations. (This seems like a very bad idea to me but apparently young people these days do it quite often.) She was contacted by a trans-identifying man who admitted he was male, but laid it on her that it was transphobic of her to reject him because of his genitals. She was a lesbian, he had a lady brain or soul or something, and that should be the criterion. She gave into this pressure and had sex with him but hated it.

Why is that story given credibility? I don't see why it can't be fictional fantasy porn written by a random straight guy.

 

[shuttlt]

Why is that story given credibility? I don't see why it can't be fictional fantasy porn written by a random straight guy.

This has come up over and over for the past couple of years. Here is the first hit Google turned up:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-42652947

Similarly, it’s not hard to find trans activist with penises who make no effort to appear to be women, have no plans for surgery, but “identify as women”, and hence demand access to women’s spaces, services and support.

 

[Stout]

I’m not sure that that is a helpful way to talk about it. Oppressor/oppressed kind of builds in who the good guys and who the bad guys are, or that there are good guys and bad guys at all.

Maybe not, but this is identity politics and all about the good guys vs the bad guys....us vs them. The oppression olympics if you will.

As a cishet male, I have no skin in the TERF/trap wars and this stuff has never touched my life outside of my computer screen.

 

[pharphis]

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Ok. I skimmed the thread so maybe I missed something, but I'm confused why that term was used specifically.

 

[Rolfe]

As I say, one of the trans-identifying men whose name repeatedly crops up in this context (I mean, pressurising lesbians to have sex with his "lady penis" and vilifying them as transphobes if they refuse) is someone I have known in real life for at least 20 years.

The internet being what it is, it's possible to dismiss any individual story you don't like as "well how do we know it's not just made up?" but when some of the vile stuff comes attached to someone you can put a name and a face to, it's a bit different. (I would say this person does make some attempt to look feminine, he's not like the guy who still has his natty beard, Alex someone, or that "Danielle" Muscato creep, but the effect is somewhat less than convincing, shall we say.)

 

[shuttlt]

Maybe not, but this is identity politics and all about the good guys vs the bad guys....us vs them. The oppression olympics if you will.

As a cishet male, I have no skin in the TERF/trap wars and this stuff has never touched my life outside of my computer screen.

 

[William Parcher]

As I say, one of the trans-identifying men whose name repeatedly crops up in this context (I mean, pressurising lesbians to have sex with his "lady penis" and vilifying them as transphobes if they refuse) is someone I have known in real life for at least 20 years.

The internet being what it is, it's possible to dismiss any individual story you don't like as "well how do we know it's not just made up?" but when some of the vile stuff comes attached to someone you can put a name and a face to, it's a bit different. (I would say this person does make some attempt to look feminine, he's not like the guy who still has his natty beard, Alex someone, or that "Danielle" Muscato creep, but the effect is somewhat less than convincing, shall we say.)

But none of that makes the story about "the young lesbian who took a dick into her pussy" more believable. It sounds like fiction to me.

 

[Rolfe]

Ok. I skimmed the thread so maybe I missed something, but I'm confused why that term was used specifically.

The three (main) different types of transgender presentations have very different personalities. Most of what is going on is being driven by a clique of aggressive, entitled autogynaephilic males who have scented that they can use the politics of oppression to further their objectives. Frankly I think they're busy jumping the shark but it's going to get messier before it gets better.

That's not to say that all autogynaephilic males are aggressive creeps, but most of the aggressive creeps are autogynaephilic males.

Homosexual trans-sexuals who present as non-gender-conforming children are victims in this situation, as instead of being allowed to play with the toys they want to play with their childish preferences are being used to label them as trans and steer them towards a life of medicalisation and disfiguring surgery, which most of them would have avoided with more sympathetic care.

Rapid-onset gender dysphoria, presenting in the late teens, mainly affects girls. (A friend of mine has a daughter going through this and I can't bear to watch to be honest.) These young people are also being encouraged to embrace cross-sex hormones and seek surgery when counselling and "wait and see" would spare most of them that fate.

The reason these young people (both classes) are being encouraged to transition, by schools and the medical profession, is the influence of the autogynaephilic activist lobby. These are mainly men who transitioned in middle-age or later, often after successful business or sporting careers, and a disproportionate number of them seem to have been in the military. In transitioning they adopted the proposition that they were "never" male, despite their marriages and children and masculine career patterns, but were always "really" female. They thus see gender non-conforming children (which they weren't) as sort of surrogates for the childhood they wish they'd had. How much happier they'd have been if they'd been able to be teenage girls at the right age instead of pretending to be teenage girls when they're actually 50-year-old men!

Unfortunately this pressure group has gained the ear of politicians and influential organisations, and it is now official advice that children should be encouraged to transition socially as early as they're seen to start playing with toys of the wrong colour, and start taking hormones as young as ten. See the pressure group "Mermaids" for an example of this. In contrast to the gay lobby's principled stance in avoiding any suggestion of grooming youngsters, Mermaids produces material for children designed to present being trans as exciting and special. There's a storybook about a penguin which is absolutely surreal.

So it's all a bit complicated, but understanding that gender dysphoria is not one thing, and the difference between HSTS, ROGD and AGP, is quite important to the debate.

 

[Stout]

Ok. I skimmed the thread so maybe I missed something, but I'm confused why that term was used specifically.

Since searching for the term obviously turned up zero results....It means a fetish cross dresser, someone who gets a woody when they dress up as a girl/woman and admire themself in a mirror.

Read Gendertrender, or Peak Trans on reddit for more insight.

 

[Rolfe]

But none of that makes the story about "the young lesbian who took a dick into her pussy" more believable. It sounds like fiction to me.

I don't recognise that quote. It certainly wasn't part of the account I read. Perhaps you've been reading something else.

 

[William Parcher]

I don't recognise that quote. It certainly wasn't part of the account I read. Perhaps you've been reading something else.

It's not a quote, it's a characterization of this story posted by you...

There's a more credible story around from a young lesbian who was seeking out sex partners using the internet in her early sexual explorations. (This seems like a very bad idea to me but apparently young people these days do it quite often.) She was contacted by a trans-identifying man who admitted he was male, but laid it on her that it was transphobic of her to reject him because of his genitals. She was a lesbian, he had a lady brain or soul or something, and that should be the criterion. She gave into this pressure and had sex with him but hated it.

 

[William Parcher]

Having sexual intercourse with a lesbian is standard heterosexual male fantasy porn.

 

[Rolfe]

Since searching for the term obviously turned up zero results....It means a fetish cross dresser, someone who gets a woody when they dress up as a girl/woman and admire themself in a mirror.

Read Gendertrender, or Peak Trans on reddit for more insight.

I've never looked at either of these, but (surprisingly perhaps) Mumsnet is an amazing centre of activity on the subject.

If you google autogynaephilia (or the US spelling, autogynephilia) you'll get a ton of links. As I said, this article is very informative. https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Another thing to bear in mind is that AGP is a wide spectrum. Some guys never go beyond furtively trying on their wives' underwear in private. Some start to cross-dress in public but never go so far as identifying as women. Others go further, playing a feminine social role, referring to themselves as women, while remaining male-bodied. Then others take hormones, and some have "top" surgery - breast enhancements and/or facial feminisation surgery. Perhaps surprisingly only about 10% have actual sex reassignment surgery (the surgery they're so keen to advocate for little boys), so most of these guys are guys by any normal definition of the word.

There seems to be a pretty predictable progression to these guys' behaviour, and there are many anguished accounts from their wives of what their lives became when the husband couldn't restrain himself from dressing (often embarrassingly) as a woman. I can't find the one I had in mind at the moment but I'll try again later.

And yet a friend of mine who transitioned 20 years ago (not the cotton ceiling creep I mentioned above) is quite obviously autogynaephilic but has never disrespected women or been at all aggressive in women's company. Trans defenders often say, you think all trans people are - perverts, or whatever the conversation is about, but that's not so. However the perverts exist and they are dangerous, and they don't come with a big label so we can tell them apart from the others.

Some of them get to a place where they actually hate women, because we have what they want but realise they can never have, and they're conscious of women's often tacit and passive rejection when they try to join the girly sisterhood - there's a clip somewhere of an incident of that sort in a TV reality show. And some of these guys are seriously dangerous, beginning to fantasise about killing a woman.

So it's a big subject, and appoaching everything from the position that all trans-identifying people are oppressed vulnerable victims who would never hurt or even knowingly upset anyone else, is not helpful.

 

[deadrose]

As the proud mother of a trans daughter, this thread disappoints me hugely. She no more chose to be transgender than any of you choose to be cisgender. It's just what she's been all her life, and has finally been able to act on in the past few years. She's an adult, and would have been much happier if she could have started taking androgen-blockers before puberty started, but the view at the time was to do nothing, not even reversible hormone-blocking, until adulthood.

Please try to remember that you're talking about real people, not just cardboard characters and it's extremely painful for some of us listening to your hatred.