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Why Hitler Declared War On The United States

lobosrul5 said:
Hitler declared war on Dec 11 1941. I wonder about two things:

First, did he know that Barbarossa had failed by then? Was he being fed false information, or did he simply choose to believe otherwise. It seems to be a stunning example of insane megalomania to believe that Germany (and minor powers) could defeat the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and the USA all at once.
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I think Hitler intended, and hoped, that Barbarossa would be over by Christmas and that he could then use his blitzkrieg tactics in Soviet Russia in the same way as in France. He had made no plans for winter clothing for his army. He suddenly came up against General Mud and General Russian Winter and a Russian counter attack at Moscow at about the same time as he declared war on America. In other words he became bogged down.

Hitler seems to have had plans to overthrow democracy in America and install a pro-Nazi government with the backing of the Irish Americans, and German Americans. Somebody, though I can't provide a reference, once wrote a fiction book in which Charles Lindbergh became president, supported by the pro-Nazi wealthy manufacturer Henry Ford.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Hitler declared war on Dec 11 1941. I wonder about two things:

First, did he know that Barbarossa had failed by then? Was he being fed false information, or did he simply choose to believe otherwise. It seems to be a stunning example of insane megalomania to believe that Germany (and minor powers) could defeat the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and the USA all at once.

Secondly, Japan had no plans at all to invade the USSR. Did Hitler know this, did he think they might? There was after all pretty much no operational or even strategic planning between Japan and the European Axis powers.
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Yes Hitler knew by Dec. 11 1941 that Barbarossa had failed. On December 5 1941 the Soviets had counter attacked and driven deep into German lines by December 11 1941. The result was that Hitler knew by December 11, 1941 at the latest that the effort to defeat the Soviet Union in 1941 had failed. In fact it appears that Hitler knew by early November 1941 that the Russian campaign would have to be renewed in 1942 and that victory in 1941 was just not going to happen.

Yes Hitler knew that Japan was not going to attack the Soviet Union in 1941 or 1942. And yes that bothered him but he thought gaining a powerful naval ally against Britain and America was worth it. As early has April 1941 Hitler was promising to go to war with America if Japan attacked the USA, even though he knew an attack on the Soviet Union was not likely.

As for Hitler's megalomania. Hitler shared with many of his generals and a large section of the German public the notion that Germany had been stabbed in the back during the First World War and had not lost the war militarily. Thus Hitler like many Germans tended to seriously underestimate just how important American resources etc., were in deciding the First World War. Also Hitler due to his racist nonsense thought the USA has a weak power which was actually less formidable than it appeared. When this was combined with Hitler's racist nonsense about the Soviet Union it resulted in a considerable underestimate of his enemies. And I should point out Hitler was not alone in believing this nonsense many members of the German military believed the same sort of crap, especially the stab in the back myth. The German Generals who drew up the plans for Barbarossa seriously underestimated the difficulties because of racist nonsense they believed, and thought the campaign would be over in a few months. They were wrong.
 
Pacal said:
Yes Hitler knew by Dec. 11 1941 that Barbarossa had failed. On December 5 1941 the Soviets had counter attacked and driven deep into German lines by December 11 1941. The result was that Hitler knew by December 11, 1941 at the latest that the effort to defeat the Soviet Union in 1941 had failed. In fact it appears that Hitler knew by early November 1941 that the Russian campaign would have to be renewed in 1942 and that victory in 1941 was just not going to happen.

Yes Hitler knew that Japan was not going to attack the Soviet Union in 1941 or 1942. And yes that bothered him but he thought gaining a powerful naval ally against Britain and America was worth it. As early has April 1941 Hitler was promising to go to war with America if Japan attacked the USA, even though he knew an attack on the Soviet Union was not likely.

As for Hitler's megalomania. Hitler shared with many of his generals and a large section of the German public the notion that Germany had been stabbed in the back during the First World War and had not lost the war militarily. Thus Hitler like many Germans tended to seriously underestimate just how important American resources etc., were in deciding the First World War. Also Hitler due to his racist nonsense thought the USA has a weak power which was actually less formidable than it appeared. When this was combined with Hitler's racist nonsense about the Soviet Union it resulted in a considerable underestimate of his enemies. And I should point out Hitler was not alone in believing this nonsense many members of the German military believed the same sort of crap, especially the stab in the back myth. The German Generals who drew up the plans for Barbarossa seriously underestimated the difficulties because of racist nonsense they believed, and thought the campaign would be over in a few months. They were wrong.
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All that points me in the direction that Hitler was a fool for declaring war on the USA in Dec 1941 rather than it being a reasonable, but ultimately flawed, strategic decision. I've heard the "stab in the back" theories before, but again, anyone who believed them was an idiot. The USA was willing to take over 100,000 KIA, almost all in just a 6 month span at the end of the war. Germany was going to be militarily defeated in 1919.
 
Henri McPhee said:
Bogged down snip...

Hitler seems to have had plans to overthrow democracy in America and install a pro-Nazi government with the backing of the Irish Americans, and German Americans. Somebody, though I can't provide a reference, once wrote a fiction book in which Charles Lindbergh became president, supported by the pro-Nazi wealthy manufacturer Henry Ford.
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Philip Roth. The Plot Against America. I fail to see what a novel published in 2004 has to do with any plans Hitler may or may not have had.
 
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Henri McPhee said:
There was an interesting TV documentary yesterday in the UK on Yesterday TV which gave some of the reasons why Hitler declared war on America. There was quite a large pro-Nazi movement and 'America First' and opposition to involvement in a European war in America at the time, supported by German Americans and Irish Americans. Hitler was opposed to the Jews in America, and to Roosevelt, who to give him credit was opposed to Hitler, and Hitler wanted to overthrow democracy there and replace him with the Fuehrer Kuhn. Hitler thought there was no culture in America even though the Metropolitan Opera in New York was still going strong.
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Wasn't there an actual "American Nazi" Party in the U.S. during the time? Or was that after the war. The leader was murdered.
 
I've seen another reason given for Hitler's declaration of war: He was trying to grab a share of the credit for Pearl Harbor, because he hadn't had any recent military successes.

Additionally, we should bear in mind that, although Hitler's action undoubtedly made things easier for FDR politically, in the final analysis, it mattered little. Even without Hitler's declaration (and for that matter, even without a Japanese attack), the US would certainly have declared war on Germany and Italy by mid-1942 at the latest, and full-scale mobilization would have proceeded at about the same pace it did historically, even if Japan had been the only "official" enemy for the first several months of the conflict.
 
fagin said:
Philip Roth. The Plot Against America. I fail to see what a novel published in 2004 has to do with any plans Hitler may or may not have had.
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You (and many of us) obviously lack the unique insight that Henri has.
 
Venom said:
Wasn't there an actual "American Nazi" Party in the U.S. during the time? Or was that after the war. The leader was murdered.
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George Lincoln Rockwell, after the war.

He's referenced in the alternative history series "The Man in the High Castle". An airport is named after him in that alternate reality.
 
lobosrul5 said:
All that points me in the direction that Hitler was a fool for declaring war on the USA in Dec 1941 rather than it being a reasonable, but ultimately flawed, strategic decision. I've heard the "stab in the back" theories before, but again, anyone who believed them was an idiot. The USA was willing to take over 100,000 KIA, almost all in just a 6 month span at the end of the war. Germany was going to be militarily defeated in 1919.
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Actually I agree those beliefs were indeed idiotic. My point was that Hitler was not in the slightest unusual or unique in believing them. They were common beliefs among many Germans, including educated Germans and including probably most of the German Generals.

The stab in the back mythos was an especially pernicious piece of nonsense that was believed by probably the majority of the German Officer class. The German Officer class also bought the racist nonsense about Slavs, crap about the USA etc., along with the nonsensical stab in the back myth. Hitler was indeed a fool to buy this nonsense but his beliefs were widely shared in the milieu in which he lived and worked. He was a fool among other fools.
 
Venom said:
Wasn't there an actual "American Nazi" Party in the U.S. during the time? Or was that after the war. The leader was murdered.
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The Nazis never formed an political party ,per se, but did form the German American Bund. (it went by a variety of names). The Bund rapidly made itself toxic, though,by it'activity and it's violence. It greatest triumph was a big rally in Madison Square Garden in New York City, but it backfired big time and the Bund was a Pariah group thereafter. (You see footage from the rally in a lot of documentaries).
 
Pacal said:
As for Hitler's megalomania. Hitler shared with many of his generals and a large section of the German public the notion that Germany had been stabbed in the back during the First World War and had not lost the war militarily. Thus Hitler like many Germans tended to seriously underestimate just how important American resources etc., were in deciding the First World War. Also Hitler due to his racist nonsense thought the USA has a weak power which was actually less formidable than it appeared.
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To put things in historical context; the impact of the USA in WW1 and WW2 was very different.

In WW1, production of munitions for the other allies (pre-dating officially joining the war) was very significant but production of American designed tanks/aircraft etc was very unimpressive (i.e. none saw action - the AEF had to use French and British equipmen,. leading Goring to quip in later years [i.e. ealry ww2] that "the Americans cannot build aeroplanes. They are very good at refrigerators and razor blades." rather a misjudgment as it turned out!).

When it came to fighting, the specter of the AEF was important in prompting the German Spring Offensives, but the collapse of Germany in 1918 meant that the AEF never assumed a dominant role on the Western Front (both Britain and France were far more important; i.e. German prisoners captured in the final 100 days offensives in WW1: Britain-190,000; France-130,000; USA-45,000). If the war had continued an extra year, then the AEF probably would have become the main force on the Western Front.

This contrasts with WW2, where both American equipment and forces very obviously became the main Allied presence on the Western Front.


(Just putting it out there as it is my impression that a lot of people kind of assume that the American impact on WW1 must have been similar to WW2)
 
SpitfireIX said:
I've seen another reason given for Hitler's declaration of war: He was trying to grab a share of the credit for Pearl Harbor, because he hadn't had any recent military successes.

Additionally, we should bear in mind that, although Hitler's action undoubtedly made things easier for FDR politically, in the final analysis, it mattered little. Even without Hitler's declaration (and for that matter, even without a Japanese attack), the US would certainly have declared war on Germany and Italy by mid-1942 at the latest, and full-scale mobilization would have proceeded at about the same pace it did historically, even if Japan had been the only "official" enemy for the first several months of the conflict.
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I think the above is the essential thing to remember, from the German perspective the US was effectively already at war with them by December 1941. Hitler's analysis of the situation was accurate, it was his conclusion that expanding the war was the best solution that was foolish.
 
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Garrison said:
I think the above is the essential thing to remember, from the German perspective the US was effectively already at war with them by December 1941. Hitler's analysis of the situation was accurate, it was his conclusion that expanding the war was the best solution that was foolish.
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I suppose it could be in Hitler's Nazi mentality that he was trying to give moral support and practical encouragement to the Japanese by declaring war on the United States at the time of Japan's attack on Pearl harbour. There was some sort of agreement, or piece of paper, signed between Germany, Italy and Japan prior to Pearl harbour. It's a bit like politicians now saying they have no plans to do something then a few weeks or months later they go and do it.

I have never made any profound study of the historical literature with regard to the matter of Hitler's war on America, or noticed any modern records which may have come to light. I have seen a few references on TV documentaries, but they never seem to give a detailed analysis of why Hitler declared war on America.
 
Henri McPhee said:
I have never made any profound study of the any historical literature
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FTFY

Seriously, there was some 'some agreement' between the Tripartite Pact nations? This is your apparent level of knowledge about the history of the period and yet you expect people to take your claims seriously in this and the Appeasement/Churchill a War Criminal threads?
 
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Hans said:
Henri this may come as a complete shock to you but everyone on this forum knew that already..............
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And despite admitting to a lack of research he is only too happy to accuse others of not understanding. Hitler had reasons for declaring war on the USA and it fitted with his personality of gambling big. After all Germany was staring defeat in the face by December 1941 so Hitler upped the ante in the hope of fate offering him another Munich or Fall Gelb.
 
Crossbow said:
It is true that Hitler did not want to go to war with the USA in 1941.

Instead, Hitler wanted to go to war with the USA after he defeated the USSR and England which he figured would have happened in 1939 or 1940 at the latest. But, of course, his wars against England the the USSR were definitely not the fast, decisive wars that Hitler had expected.

Therefore, even if the wars that Hitler was waging against England and the USSR would have gone the way that Hitler originally planned, then he would have gone to war with the USA sooner or later.
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Do you have any evidence of that?
 
There is also Italy which can't be ignored in all this:

Italian declaration of war on the United States
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On December 11, 1941, Italy declared war on the United States in response to that country's declaration of war upon the Empire of Japan following the attack on Pearl Harbor four days earlier. Germany also declared war on the U.S. the same day. The US immediately responded by declaring war on Germany and Italy, thus thrusting the United States in fighting two major fronts across the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans in World War II.
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RecoveringYuppy said:
George Lincoln Rockwell, after the war.

He's referenced in the alternative history series "The Man in the High Castle". An airport is named after him in that alternate reality.
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German-American bund was the closest thing to a Nazi party in the USA prior to the war.
 
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