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School shooting Florida

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Babbylonian said:
Paranoia tinged with US exceptionalism. Citizens in other nations manage to legally own guns without a legally codified right to bear arms.
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Hell, we manage it here without even a written constitution. NRA heads would explode.....
 
MikeG said:
Hell, we manage it here without even a written constitution. NRA heads would explode.....
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Well, if so, that would only be because they don't understand the origins of laws and codified citizens' rights in other nations. After all, the government of the UK is generally termed a "constitutional monarchy." :)
 
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Even here in Scandinavia, which is supposedly a socialist hell on earth, people still legally own guns. And quite a lot of them too.
 
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CaptainHowdy said:
You’re argument would be taken more seriously if you explained why I’m wrong.
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Which time? You've made a lot of (at best) ignorant comments and claims. In that last round, your combination of reductio ad absurdum and ignoring the things that were actually directly stated to get to "If you're talking about every gun that performs the same function as an AR-15, as in 'fire a projectile' that's every gun" was particularly egregious, while the rest was you trying to shove your obviously nonsensical argument into the mouths of others.

Not listening then filling in the gaps that you missed with idiocy makes it a lot easier to look down on those who disagree with you, doesn't it?
 
AJM8125 said:
Here in California, we’re potentially just one Supreme Court decision from banning the sale of handguns to the general public, something that isn’t flying on the average california’s radar. In an anti-gunners wet dream, the requirement for microstamping has halted the sale of new semi-automatic handguns which do not meet that requirement. Semi-autos on the roster now are grandfathered in but will eventually be phased out.

Gun manufacturers of course balked at the law because as written, is impossible to implement. The California DOJ’s response? Then you’re certainly welcome to sell your guns elsewhere. Legal challenges at the state level have failed.

Theoretically, if the SCOTUS declines to hear or rules against the current legal challenges, California may then ban the sale of revolvers and derringers as well since they don’t eject microstamped cartridges either. Then the state may then focus on chipping away at long arms. Nifty. Other gun-unfriendly states will be free to implement similar measures.

Incidentally, the Attorney General who signed this legislation, Kamala Harris, is now a US Senator. Look for her to try pushing through something similar when the Democrats regain control after the mid-terms.

So there you have the seeds planted, perhaps.
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ServiceSoon said:
Hogwash! I've been reassured that 'nobody wants to take my guns away.'
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There is a difference between banning sales of some types of guns, and taking guns away. This seems to only apply to the sale of new guns in CA. Does this prevent the resale or continued ownership of used non-microstamping guns in CA? Will gun owners whose guns don't do this be required to turn them in?
 
MikeG said:
Well I profoundly disagree. In time, Americans will sort this out. They'll restrict what guns can be owned, and who is entitled to have them. The fact that it is difficult, and won't be done quickly or in one go, doesn't alter my optimism. You pessimists are entitled to your view, but it's hard to separate that attitude from those of the NRA supporters.
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Here is the evidence that will not happen. A list of school shootings in the USA. I am going to concentrate on shootings where kids get guns to kill other kids. Many in the list are college and university students and involve teachers, I am not including them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

The first massacre attack by pupils on other pupils was the 1998 massacre at Westside Middle School whereby;

"13-year-old Mitchell Johnson, and 11-year-old Andrew Golden, killed a teacher and four students, and wounded ten others, as Westside Middle School emptied during a fire alarm intentionally set off by Golden"

So, 5 dead, 10 injured. I don't know why that did not get a huge amount of attention. Look at the ages, they were kids. Maybe it was because pupils had been shooting fellow pupils for a number of years already, but it was one or two shot at a time. Within only 2 months, there was another multiple victim shooting;

"After killing his parents at home, 15-year-old Kip Kinkel, drove to Thurston High School, where he killed two students and wounded 23 others."

It was the next year, in April 1999, that a school massacre by a pupil on other pupils finally properly hit the headlines;

"18-year-old Eric Harris and 17-year-old Dylan Klebold, students at Columbine High School, killed twelve students and one teacher. They injured 21 additional people, and three more were injured while attempting to escape the school."

It took Columbine to happen before the headlines really hit and that shows how conditioned the USA was to kids killing kids and not reacting. Did Columbine cause a change, whereby action was taken to get a better control of guns? The answer is an emphatic NO.

Have you even heard of the next massacre? It was in 2005;

"16-year-old student Jeffrey Weise, killed his grandfather and grandfather's companion at their home, where he had been living, at the Red Lake Indian Reservation. He drove to Red Lake Senior High School. Armed with his grandfather's police weapons, Weise killed five students, one teacher, and one security guard, wounding seven others, before committing suicide"

Killing at home, getting guns and travelling to a school to kill. That was a template for;

"Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting: 20-year-old Adam Lanza, killed twenty-six people and himself. He first killed his mother at their shared home before taking her guns and driving to the school. Lanza brought four guns with him. He killed twenty first-grade children aged six and seven during the attack at school, along with six adults, including four teachers, the principal, and the school psychologist. Two other persons were injured. Lanza then killed himself as police arrived at the school."

Did that make a difference? The answer is another emphatic NO. Indeed,one of the most striking reactions was not to tackle gun control, it was to claim the shooting was faked. Far more time was spent arguing over whether or not the children had been killed or not, than was spent trying to get a consensus and act to restrict guns from people like Adam Lanza.

Kids are getting guns and massacring other children.

By now it is clear, NOTHING is too shocking for the USA. NOTHING will cause Americans to unite and at least try and get agreement on how to stop kids with mental health and anger issues getting guns.

Now, evidence the hope you claim will happen.
 
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MikeG said:
This is Poe, isn't it.
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I wish, but I suspect otherwise. I suspect that there are some here for whom the ideal world is an ugly, nasty little place where neither love nor reason find a place to root.

Maybe it's one of the ways we can become reconciled to mortality, as I find myself increasingly glad that I'll be dead and gone before I have to endure the dismal future some crave.
 
Dave Rogers said:
Like I said, it's strange how easily you recognise different categories of people but can't recognise different categories of gun. But, hey, if you want to argue that a Brown Bess musket is exactly the same as an M61 Vulcan because they both fire a projectile, and the difference between weights of projectile and rates of fire is irrelevant, please go ahead.I'm sure everyone will adjust their view of your credibility accordingly.
Dave
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I won't. There is enough evidence for a firm conclusion.
 
Nessie said:
By now it is clear, NOTHING is too shocking for the USA. NOTHING will cause Americans to unite and at least try and get agreement on how to stop kids with mental health and anger issues getting guns.
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And it isn't just school shootings. Hell that's just a drop in the bucket of how many kids are shooting each other. I'm talking about gangs.

Drive to Oakland some night, if you dare, and turn off your car. You will hear gunshots from the time the sun goes down. No exaggeration. In many areas stores lock their doors when they are open for business and let customers in as needed.

Even in Stockton (another hell hole) I was let into a locked store on a Saturday afternoon - broad daylight, open for business. Last time I'm going to Stockton.

The many kids that die every day due to gang violence is not in the news even as these school shootings are focusing attention on this subject. Los Angeles and Oakland are littered with gangs and guns. Laws don't seem to be working on them. Micro-stamping, what a laugh.
 
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MikeG said:
Didn't read past that. Evidence of the future.........it's a stupid notion.
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I produced evidence of numerous past school massacre shootings, were pupils killed other pupils and nothing has been done, other than some state tinkering with local gun control laws.

That is a very strong indication nothing will happen with any future shootings.

Now, again, where is your evidence the USA will change and introduce country wide gun controls that tackle the problem?
 
You were involved with the police in way way or another, and yet have no concept of what evidence is. Interesting. You stuffed up your own prediction with "evidence of the future", and, despite being told that that's a nonsense, you are now trying to get me to produce my evidence of the future.

Let's see if I can walk you through this in baby steps. Evidence is that which is left by events in the past. Stuff which has happened. Have a think on that for a little while.
 
Nessie said:
By now it is clear, NOTHING is too shocking for the USA. NOTHING will cause Americans to unite and at least try and get agreement on how to stop kids with mental health and anger issues getting guns.

Now, evidence the hope you claim will happen.
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It's not just matter of some magic limit, which has to be crossed. There is also cumulative effect. 1000 dead kids ? What's that ? Maybe just a fluke. Data error. Let's better wait till it's 10000. No need to fuzz about small stuff like that right now.
 
mgidm86 said:
And it isn't just school shootings. Hell that's just a drop in the bucket of how many kids are shooting each other. I'm talking about gangs.

Drive to Oakland some night, if you dare, and turn off your car. You will hear gunshots from the time the sun goes down. No exaggeration. In many areas stores lock their doors when they are open for business and let customers in as needed.

Even in Stockton (another hell hole) I was let into a locked store on a Saturday afternoon - broad daylight, open for business. Last time I'm going to Stockton.

The many kids that die every day due to gang violence is not in the news even as these school shootings are focusing attention on this subject. Los Angeles and Oakland are littered with gangs and guns. Laws don't seem to be working on them. Micro-stamping, what a laugh.
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What a coincidence. I’m in Stockton right now. It is a hellhole. It has been for a long time. It’s also the future of California and the rest of the United States. But it’s the people here and not the guns that are the problem.
 
Dr.Sid said:
It's not just matter of some magic limit, which has to be crossed. There is also cumulative effect. 1000 dead kids ? What's that ? Maybe just a fluke. Data error. Let's better wait till it's 10000. No need to fuzz about small stuff like that right now.
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To be fair, has there been 1000 dead due to mass school shootings? Over what time period?

Mass school shootings are horrific, no doubt. But the odds are very slim that any particular child will be affected by such an event. That doesn't mean we shouldn't care, of course, but we should qualify the concern by the risk.
 
phiwum said:
To be fair, has there been 1000 dead due to mass school shootings? Over what time period?

Mass school shootings are horrific, no doubt. But the odds are very slim that any particular child will be affected by such an event. That doesn't mean we shouldn't care, of course, but we should qualify the concern by the risk.
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Perhaps while also comparing said risk with that of other countries?
 
Babbylonian said:
Perhaps while also comparing said risk with that of other countries?
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Fair point.

Though I'm still not sure that our attention ought to be on the rarest of gun deaths. Our other gun deaths also exceed the risks in most nations
 
phiwum said:
Fair point.

Though I'm still not sure that our attention ought to be on the rarest of gun deaths. Our other gun deaths also exceed the risks in most nations
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Yeah, well, when the more common gun deaths start getting some publicity, maybe people will start giving a ****. In the meantime, attacking one, extremely high-profile problem aggressively might just help address the other*.

*Though I doubt you're bringing up our overall ridiculous gun homicide rate in order to provide more evidence that the United States has a ridiculous gun problem that needs to be addressed with some draconian measures...
 
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