Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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bknight said:
This could and should be a teaching moment for MJ, and this is directed at you.

We know from the Zapruder film that the coat of JBC popped forward AFTER appearing from behind the Roadway sign. Notice in your image that the President's limo is before the sign, from Zapruder's perspective. And at the slow speed it will take at least 2-3 second before it will be past the sign.

Any logical person can deduce that

A. The Zapruder film is wrong
B. Willis is wrong

What is your best guess at the question, MJ?
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I think you are confused. I'm saying that the Willis 5 photo is evidence that the first loud report occurred a brief time before Connally's lapel flap. Example: one weapon in Dealey Plaza creates the first loud report at z190, followed shortly by another weapon striking Connally causing the lapel flap at z224.
 
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MicahJava said:
I think you are confused. I'm saying that the Willis 5 photo is evidence that the first loud report occurred a brief time before Connally's lapel flap. Example: one weapon in Dealey Plaza creates the first loud report at z190, followed shortly by another weapon striking Connally causing the lapel flap at z224.
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Do you detect startle reactions in the photo?
 
MicahJava said:
I think you are confused. I'm saying that the Willis 5 photo is evidence that the first loud report occurred a brief time before Connally's lapel flap. Example: one weapon in Dealey Plaza creates the first loud report at z190, followed shortly by another weapon striking Connally causing the lapel flap at z224.
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Problem is that there was only one weapon, and the two bullets that struck came after the car had cleared the trees making for a clean shot.

Anything else is just bush-level ghost-hunter matrixing.
 
RoboTimbo said:
Do you detect startle reactions in the photo?
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Not even trying to be funny - a beautiful woman may have appeared.

In training folks in the modern age,* my standard instruction would be that if you see Sofia Vergara dancing naked with John Stamos, never mind the cheesecake, keep your mind on the job.

*20 years ago my example would be Sophia Loren in Lingerie, but eventually I had to state the problem taking into account multiple viewpoints.
 
MicahJava said:
I think you are confused. I'm saying that the Willis 5 photo is evidence that the first loud report occurred a brief time before Connally's lapel flap. Example: one weapon in Dealey Plaza creates the first loud report at z190, followed shortly by another weapon striking Connally causing the lapel flap at z224.
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I'm not confused, as you are posting this stuff. The image is not evidence of any loud report. It is alleged to be taken at the first shot, but you have no evidence of that except Willis comments. Besides you posted a moment now you are moving the goal post to a brief time. In my education a moment is less than brief, although both are relative. You have no evidence of a shot fired at 190, you do have a reference to JBC's jacket movement by frame 224. There was no other weapon in Dealey firing upon the motorcade and you are throwing in re herrings.
 
bknight said:
I'm not confused, as you are posting this stuff. The image is not evidence of any loud report. It is alleged to be taken at the first shot, but you have no evidence of that except Willis comments. Besides you posted a moment now you are moving the goal post to a brief time. In my education a moment is less than brief, although both are relative. You have no evidence of a shot fired at 190, you do have a reference to JBC's jacket movement by frame 224. There was no other weapon in Dealey firing upon the motorcade and you are throwing in re herrings.
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It's a job for the CTists best friend, the crowbar...
 
Ok. I'm taking multiple pictures during a traumatic event. I send my film in and when I get them back I decide that one particular picture is the one I took at an instant during the traumatic event. There is nothing in the picture to positively peg it to that particular instance but my day or weeks old memory insists that I remember everything perfectly even though it is a fact that memory is not all that precise. That about cover it?
 
MicahJava said:
If you want to forfeit the evidence provided by Phillip Willis, I'll gladly take it. I know it's witness testimony, but it's strong witness testimony. Snapping a photograph as a reaction to a loud gunshot is the kind of thing that would leave a distinct impression on a witness.

Willis is dead. There's no more evidence to get out of him. No chance for a last-second change of the story. Sorry.
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Why is Willis' testimony any stronger than John Connally's?

Willis says his reaction to the first shot was snapping the picture at Z210ish.

Connally says his reaction to the first shot was to look to his right, which happens at Z160.

Willis might be misremembering how quickly he snapped that picture. Other than that, his recollection would be fairly accurate.
 
HSienzant said:
No, you're not thinking like a conspiracy theorist.

Anything that suggests conspiracy must be true.
Anything that doesn't must be false.

It's really that simple.

What Willis said suggests an earlier shot about one second before the one that hit JFK. Since Oswald couldn't fire this one suggested by Willis and the one that hit JFK, that means conspiracy. So that means Willis' recollection can't be wrong.
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MicahJava said:
I know it's witness testimony, but it's strong witness testimony.
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What I said.

Strong witness testimony is anything that appears to suggest a conspiracy.
Weak witness testimony is anything else.

You're just begging the question.

Hank
 
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Wolrab said:
Ok. I'm taking multiple pictures during a traumatic event. I send my film in and when I get them back I decide that one particular picture is the one I took at an instant during the traumatic event. There is nothing in the picture to positively peg it to that particular instance but my day or weeks old memory insists that I remember everything perfectly even though it is a fact that memory is not all that precise. That about cover it?
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That about covers it.

Willis took twelve photos in total. They start here: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0396b.htm

You can page through by clicking the < NEXT >.

Hank
 
HSienzant said:
That about covers it.

Willis took twelve photos in total. They start here: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0396b.htm

You can page through by clicking the < NEXT >.

Hank
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And there was an arrow pointing down to JFK, that indicated that his head was upright with no arms. No injury to JFK at this point no distress. The car was before the road sign so the "single bullet" hasn't been fired yet.

Absolutely no evidence of another shooter. I suspect that Willis didn't even hear a shot, since he didn't pan away to where he would have heard a shot and taken an image of a rifle poking out the window of the 6th floor TSB, too bad he missed the opportunity of a liftetime.
 
Notice we're not talking about the phantom second GSW to JFK's head anymore.

Trying to apply sound to a silent film by guessing crowd reaction is a classic JFK-CT-Nutjob Clown Show.

Fact: People do not react to gunshots the same way they would if the SEE THE GUN.

Say what you want about 2018 America, but we've had enough mass shootings to have an accurate picture of how groups of people from Kindergarten to adult react to gunfire.

The initial reaction when shots are fired is to think someone has set off fire-works, or a car backfired.

Then folks freeze and look at each other looking for that one person who knows what's going on.

The screaming is usually the first clue someone is shooting up the place (except for those struck by bullets).

I'm sorry, it's 2018, we can't argue the assassination like it's still 1976. The sad, terrible, awful fact is that we have enough data on human reaction/interaction in a shooting situation to know that THERE IS NO WAY TO GUESS THE EXACT FRAMES THE FIRST AND SECOND SHOTS WERE FIRED. We know when the third one was fired, and we know that only two struck the car.
 
Wolrab said:
Ok. I'm taking multiple pictures during a traumatic event. I send my film in and when I get them back I decide that one particular picture is the one I took at an instant during the traumatic event. There is nothing in the picture to positively peg it to that particular instance but my day or weeks old memory insists that I remember everything perfectly even though it is a fact that memory is not all that precise. That about cover it?
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Importantly, in 1963 there were no one-hour photo stores. The first commercial all-in-one film processing machine (minilab) was the American made "Hope Liberty"....

hope-liberty.jpg


...and that wasn't in production until about 1985.

In the 1960's, films were processed by hand, and it took typically five days to a week to get your photos back. I seriously doubt that Willis, or anyone for that matter could "hold" that moment in their mind until they saw their photos for the first time, and then recall the exact moment they fired the shutter.

To me, this sounds like he's seen the photo, and later concluded that it might have been taken at the moment of the shot.... post fact embellishment.
 
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smartcooky said:
To me, this sounds like he's seen the photo, and later concluded that it might have been taken at the moment of the shot.... post fact embellishment.
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There's likely a little bit of wishful thinking on Willis' part too, intentionally or not. It's a better story.
 
traxy said:
There's likely a little bit of wishful thinking on Willis' part too, intentionally or not. It's a better story.
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Should point out that he could have continued taking pictures, but was probably as confused as everyone else was in those moments JFK was being gunned down.

He never took a picture of the face of the TSBD.

Willis was just a regular guy, like everyone else there that day.
 
smartcooky said:
Importantly, in 1963 there were no one-hour photo stores. The first commercial all-in-one film processing machine (minilab) was the American made "Hope Liberty"....

[qimg]http://rasf2.fotoproekt.ru/images/equipment/hope-liberty.jpg[/qimg]

...and that wasn't in production until about 1985.

In the 1960's, films were processed by hand, and it took typically five days to a week to get your photos back. I seriously doubt that Willis, or anyone for that matter could "hold" that moment in their mind until they saw their photos for the first time, and then recall the exact moment they fired the shutter.

To me, this sounds like he's seen the photo, and later concluded that it might have been taken at the moment of the shot.... post fact embellishment.
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5 days to two weeks depending on where you lived. Big cities had labs with a 5 to 7 day turn around, but if you lived in the sticks, your film was mailed to the nearest Kodak lab. Plus, Willis's pictures were on slides, which took a little longer.

I'm not knocking the man, his pictures are important to history, and they are good quality too.
 
Axxman300 said:
Should point out that he could have continued taking pictures, but was probably as confused as everyone else was in those moments JFK was being gunned down.

He never took a picture of the face of the TSBD.
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He has the doorway in his eighth photo. He also captures part of the face of the TSBD in his 10th and 11th slide:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0398a.htm


Axxman300 said:
Willis was just a regular guy, like everyone else there that day.
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Actually he was at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked, and he took the first Japanese prisoner of WWII (from a mini sub that malfunctioned). He led a pretty interesting life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Willis

Hank
 
HSienzant said:
He has the doorway in his eighth photo. He also captures part of the face of the TSBD in his 10th and 11th slide:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0398a.htm
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I know. There's a Facebook page dedicated to the photographs taken in Dallas on the day of the assassination. All of Willis's pictures are there in high resolution. What I meant was he didn't photograph the 6th floor.

Actually he was at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked, and he took the first Japanese prisoner of WWII (from a mini sub that malfunctioned). He led a pretty interesting life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Willis

Hank
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Kind of a real Forest Gump.
 
If we're going to talk crowd reactions, in the Nix film you can see three men standing on the steps of the grassy knoll, one of them was Emmett Hudson, Dealey Plaza's groundskeeper. After the head-shot all three men turn, and run up the stairs toward the picket fence to get out of the line of fire.

Hudson said the shots came from above and behind, and claims he dove to the ground, but he is seen following the other men up the stairs.

If the shots came from over their shoulders they would have run a different direction.
 
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