School shooting Florida

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Yeggster said:
Ken Vickers didn't feel outgunned when he took out the Canadian Parliament Hill Shooter under similar circumstances.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...range-after-diving-around-pillar-9818365.html
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As per my posted a link yesterday, this tale is folk-lore and known to be untrue, although it took several years for the truth to come out. Vickers didn't take out the shooter, one of several RCMP officers (who in total shot the gunman 15 times) did.

When the best the "good guy with a gun" crowd has is an untrue story it might be time to give it up.
 
Steve said:
Exactly, and this man did nothing to stop the situation. Apart from hearing a semi-automatic the man did nothing to asses the situation. Yes, he may have been shot, but it is equally likely that he could have helped without being shot. He is supposed to be trained professional. The shooter was not.

It has nothing to do with "movie logic".

He was purely looking out for number 1. The real life scenario is that kids were getting shot and this man chose to do nothing.
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You severely do not understand the situation.

He was not set up for recon,he was not armed to even attempt to suppress the guy let alone kill him. And information he did have would have easily made it to them with more detail from other sources.

Each time you try and say "I'm not talking movie logic" you keep just restating the action hero stereotype.

Let's put it plainly.

Combat is not how you think it is. You are being as stupid as the guys who say "well if I was there is just kill the guy with my pocket knife" but with the added layer of not even proposing your own solution, just saying that you magically understand the situation better than a man with multiple decades of varied combat experience.

Is it so hard to think, maybe ,combat is a subject you know little about? Is that totally out of the realm of possibility?
 
Steve said:
Enough with the "fiction" red herring. Deal with the reality. Kids were being shot and this man did nothing.
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Agreed. The attempts to excuse this guy are pathetic.
I guess in some cases it is just a reluctance to admit that the police could mess up by giving a job to somebody who should never have had it.
 
sadhatter said:
And?

Are you saying the tactical situation was so similar that this tactic should have been used? If so what pillar should he have used? And how do you know that the florida shooter was near a pillar?

Either you have a really good inside scoop, or you are making crap up. Which is it?
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He didn't know about the pillar or even WHERE the shooter was ... the similarity is the shooter had a rifle and Ken went in with his pistol ... that's all I'm saying
 
Wayward son said:
As per my posted a link yesterday, this tale is folk-lore and known to be untrue, although it took several years for the truth to come out. Vickers didn't take out the shooter, one of several RCMP officers (who in total shot the gunman 15 times) did.

When the best the "good guy with a gun" crowd has is an untrue story it might be time to give it up.
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The fact another officer was also engaging the shooter does NOT effect the fact Ken "did not feel outgunned" .. he went in with his pistol, that was my point.
 
LTC8K6 said:
I think the intent is deterrence, not gun battles between teachers and intruders. I would think the idea for teachers would be to only engage the shooter if he is engaging you. Protect your classroom or group of students. Don't go seek out and engage the shooter.

We guard banks, and we guard airports, and we guard lots of other places.
We even guard grocery stores at night, and museums. Lots of places that we go and
gather are guarded.

We don't yet know what department policy was for the situation.

What were the officer's orders for such a situation?

We can infer that he did not follow some policy by the fact that he was suspended from duty.
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Well, yeah! He allowed the shooting of the people he was there to protect to continue uninterrupted.
 
Cruz didn't have body armor, though; it is apparently highly unusual for a school shooter to wear any kind of body armor. Of the many elementary and high school shootings since Columbine that I've been able to think of and look up, I've only managed to find one so far where an assailant wore any kind of protection like that (a 16-year-old boy in Red Lake, Minnesota who killed his police-officer grandfather and used that victim's police-issue bullet-proof vest while shooting up his school later that morning).
 
Yeggster said:
The fact another officer was also engaging the shooter does NOT effect the fact Ken "did not feel outgunned" .. he went in with his pistol, that was my point.
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There wasn't just another officer, there were a whole bunch of officers. So you are comparing a guy with a handgun, with his security team with guns, and with a whole bunch of armed officers who formed a tactical unit not feeling outgunned against a trapped and cornered gunman....to an officer with a handgun going up against a guy with an AR15? Awesome.
 
sadhatter said:
"Go in with a toothpick and a bad attitude"
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How about with a semi-automatic pistol and decades of police training?

The people who are most qualified to judge his actions, which are the active leadership of his own department, seem to think that his decision was in fact contrary to his training and mandate, which is why they fired him. By contrast you - some person on the internet - judging other people on the internet's assessments as somehow fanciful, absurd, or uninformed when those assessments actually concur with professional opinion on the matter is amusing.
 
Wayward son said:
There wasn't just another officer, there were a whole bunch of officers. So you are comparing a guy with a handgun, with his security team with guns, and with a whole bunch of armed officers who formed a tactical unit not feeling outgunned against a trapped and cornered gunman....to an officer with a handgun going up against a guy with an AR15? Awesome.
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Your tone speaks volumes :(
 
sadhatter said:
You severely do not understand the situation.

He was not set up for recon,he was not armed to even attempt to suppress the guy let alone kill him. And information he did have would have easily made it to them with more detail from other sources.

Each time you try and say "I'm not talking movie logic" you keep just restating the action hero stereotype.

Let's put it plainly.

Combat is not how you think it is. You are being as stupid as the guys who say "well if I was there is just kill the guy with my pocket knife" but with the added layer of not even proposing your own solution, just saying that you magically understand the situation better than a man with multiple decades of varied combat experience.

Is it so hard to think, maybe ,combat is a subject you know little about? Is that totally out of the realm of possibility?
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The hyperbole is so over the top here it is physically painful (see what I did there?)

You are correct that I know very little about combat. I served only in the reserves and saw no active duty. But why are you talking about combat? There was no combat. This was kid with a gun shooting a bunch of other kids. The guard, or whatever he was, allowed that to continue to save his own hide.
 
If you are a police officer or a fireman..or in the military...the expectations in a dangerous situation are much higher then they are for Joe Civilian. Some people here don't seem to get that.
 
dudalb said:
Both CNN and MSNBC reported that more and more police depatments are training officers to go in without backup if a large number of shots are being heard. There is literally no time to wait for backup.
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I don't doubt that at this time more and more police departments are saying that is there policy. When a tragedy happens and you need a scapegoat it is easy to find one.
 
Wayward son said:
I don't doubt that at this time more and more police departments are saying that is there policy. When a tragedy happens and you need a scapegoat it is easy to find one.
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I am having trouble seeing where you are going with your comments in this thread. Would you mind clarifying your position? Thanks in advance.
 
Wayward son said:
The fact that you think that two situations which are as different as two situations could be are comparable speaks volumes.
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I stand by the claim, pistol vs rifle ... the issue is if he "felt outgunned" that's what I'm addressing ... AND Ken could have just sat it out ... he had to go to his office and get his pistol out of the safe first.
 
Wayward son said:
The fact that you think that two situations which are as different as two situations could be are comparable speaks volumes.
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Situation 1 - Man with a rifle is shooting people. Man with a pistol takes action and attempts to stop him.

Situation 2 - Man with a rifle is shooting people. Man with a pistol takes no action and does not attempt to stop him.

Without adding extraneous info, do you disagree with this comparison?
 
Yeggster said:
I stand by the claim, pistol vs rifle ... the issue is if he "felt outgunned" that's what I'm addressing ... AND Ken could have just sat it out ... he had to go to his office and get his pistol out of the safe first.
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He engaged the shooter WHEN there were like a dozen other heavily armed officers (who were actually the ones who killed him). The officer here waited for other officers.

(The article you posted claims that "Kevin Vickers, 58, confronted Michael Zehaf-Bibeau alone". This is known to be completely untrue.)
 
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