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Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

I suppose it's possible that the British exaggerated German air power in 1938 with their belief at the time that the bomber will always get through, and Britain would last a week. The fact is that the German bombers did get through, even with Spitfire and Hurricanes in quite large numbers as an air defence capability.

There is quite an interesting article on the internet about this at:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/20...The-origins-of-World-War-II-1929-39#ref304298

It may not be the pure unadulterated historical truth but it indicates the thinking at the time.

After March 1936 the Defence Requirements Committee recognized that home air defense must become Britain’s top priority and commanded development of a high-speed, single-wing fighter plane. But two years passed before Sir Warren Fisher finally persuaded the Air Ministry to concentrate on fighter defense in its Scheme M, adopted in November 1938. At the time of Munich, therefore, the Royal Air Force possessed only two squadrons of Spitfires and Hurricanes, lacked oxygen masks sufficient to allow pursuit above 15,000 feet, and had barely begun deployment of that new wonder, radar. Only after Hitler’s occupation of Prague was conscription reinstated (April 27, 1939) and a continental army of 32 divisions planned. Throughout the era of appeasement the British expected to resist Japan and come to terms with Germany. Instead, by dint of the mistaken choices in naval technology and the eleventh-hour attention to air defense, Britain would be humiliated by Japan and withstand Germany.
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Henri McPhee said:
I suppose it's possible that the British exaggerated German air power in 1938 with their belief at the time that the bomber will always get through, and Britain would last a week. The fact is that the German bombers did get through, even with Spitfire and Hurricanes in quite large numbers as an air defence capability.
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I think I may try explaining fighter ranges and the difference between escorted and unescorted bombers to my cat. He's not the brightest of cats, but I think he'll at least be aware that I'm talking to him.

Dave
 
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Henri McPhee said:
That quote was from a Daily Telegraph article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/...f-Britain-the-spitfire-envy-of-the-enemy.html

You people can't just deny that there was an air blitz on Britain. There is hard documentary evidence, and even film evidence. Holland surrendered after Rotterdam was bombed by Hitler. The Czechs surrendered, after Hitler threatened to bomb Prague, and Warsaw was heavily bombed. Though London was never fire stormed, Coventry suffered a bit of damage. Ireland never declared war on Germany. Hitler could have invaded Britain in 1938, or forced a surrender, in the same way as he occupied the Channel islands, if the RAF, with its Gloster Gladiators, was not operational. Churchill should have been asked with what?
Chamberlain provided another year to get organised.

It was pretty close, even in September 1940, and even if the British public and internet posters were relying on the British navy, in the same way as the French relied on the French navy.
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Where to start?
The French Navy couldn't stop a land invasion!! How would they get to the German French border?

As for the German invasion, as repeatedly mentioned, what would they invade with? Dumb barges towed behind tugs and pushed on to the beach. No naval escort and facing the Royal Navy, at the time still the biggest in the world.
 
Henri McPhee said:
I suppose it's possible that the British exaggerated German air power in 1938 with their belief at the time that the bomber will always get through, and Britain would last a week.
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Which was, as has been explained to you repeatedly, was utterly wrong. Even bombing at night and thus minimizing the effectiveness of British air defences the Luftwaffe in 1940 couldn't even come close to the hysterical pre-war predictions. Also in case you hadn't noticed the war broke out in 1939 and the Luftwaffe didn't mount a major bombing offensive until 1940 after the fall of France, because they could not launch an effective campaign without the French bases. In a 1938 war the chances of them defeating France are drastically reduced and if France doesn't fall quickly Germany has had it. It simply didn't have the resources for an extended offensive campaign.

Again the question is not whether Munich bought time, but which side got the most benefit from that delay?
 
CHamberlain's whole "Peace In Our Time" routine was a total disaster. Many COmnservatives found making a deal with Hitler distasteful,but felt it was necessary because the UK was not ready to take on Germany, and time needed to be bought for Britian to rearm. They were horrified by Chamberlain's news conference, and apparently CHamberlain himself regretted it just a couple of days after the statement.
 
dudalb said:
CHamberlain's whole "Peace In Our Time" routine was a total disaster. Many COmnservatives found making a deal with Hitler distasteful,but felt it was necessary because the UK was not ready to take on Germany, and time needed to be bought for Britian to rearm. They were horrified by Chamberlain's news conference, and apparently CHamberlain himself regretted it just a couple of days after the statement.
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He was cheered to the roof in parliament and in the streets. No one wanted a war with Germany at any cost. 1914-18 was still raw for a lot of people.
 
Actually what was new is that it got worse under Hitler, as he pretty much blocked food imports. There's one reason I mention Denmark for example, because you can look at the cattle imports from there and the corresponding figures for the German slaughterhouses near that border, and under Hitler that took a nose dive. He was literally malnourishing his people to build tanks and airplanes.

And yes, good that you mention fat intake, because yeah, that was an even bigger problem.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
He was cheered to the roof in parliament and in the streets. No one wanted a war with Germany at any cost. 1914-18 was still raw for a lot of people.
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And this is the thing.
It was always going to be a tough sell, especially since Chamberlain himself had little enthusiasm for it, and the information he was getting from the armed forces was that we were ill-prepared.

At that point, Germany had marched into the Rhineland, merged with Austria (well, they're German as well, went the thinking), and wanted the "German" bits of Czechoslovakia.

Until he marched into Czechoslovakia in '39, as far as the general populace was concerned he hadn't done anything that necessarily warranted a war.

Yes, they should have seen the writing on the wall. Yes, for once Churchill was actually sort of correct. But that was Churchill, and he'd been wrong more often than not.
 
Tolls said:
And this is the thing.
It was always going to be a tough sell, especially since Chamberlain himself had little enthusiasm for it, and the information he was getting from the armed forces was that we were ill-prepared.

At that point, Germany had marched into the Rhineland, merged with Austria (well, they're German as well, went the thinking), and wanted the "German" bits of Czechoslovakia.

Until he marched into Czechoslovakia in '39, as far as the general populace was concerned he hadn't done anything that necessarily warranted a war.

Yes, they should have seen the writing on the wall. Yes, for once Churchill was actually sort of correct. But that was Churchill, and he'd been wrong more often than not.
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Perfect lack of (forward) thinking, but then Brits didn't have to deal with Germans as much as we had to. (Goes way back to early Middle Age...)

Well, they wanted peace, they got it in the end...
 
Dave Rogers said:
Of course, if they'd tried that in the Ardennes, it might have given the French navy time to get into position to stop them.

Dave
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I know you're just being silly, but seriously, is there any navigable water between the Meuse and Sambre to the west and the Moselle to the east? If so, I bet you have to take plenty of coin with you to pay the lock operators. :)
 
The point you are missing is that the Germans had a concept of the fast bomber which could outrun British fighter aircraft. The German bombers did not need fighter escort, until the Hurricanes and Spitfires came into service in 1939-40. The Gloster Gladiator, on which London's air defence capability depended in 1938, had a maximum speed of 257mph, which was too slow for the RAF.

There is quite an amusing article on the internet about the sheer ignorance of the facts of the modern British Herbert with regard to all this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...even-fewer-than-everyone-thought-5369212.html

But a survey published yesterday shows that many people in modern Britain have a woefully inadequate grasp of the debt owed to these Second World War heroes. An ICM poll to mark the 60th anniversary of the Battle of Britain found that some were not even sure that Britain was fighting the Germans, saying instead that they thought the enemy was the Romans or Normans - while 10 per cent thought the French were the foe. Some people were also confused as to whether their wartime leader was Winston Churchill or King Alfred.
For the survey, 1,000 people were asked four questions about the Battle of Britain - but fewer than half of those aged between 18 and 24 knew it was an air battle. The RAF pilots, whose victory forced Hitler to abandon his invasion plans, became known as "the Few" after Churchill's speech in which he said: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."
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Henri McPhee said:
The point you are missing is that the Germans had a concept of the fast bomber which could outrun British fighter aircraft.
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So did the British. So did everyone. The point you are missing is that, until the Mosquito came into service, which really was fast enough to outrun fighter defences, these fast bombers simply weren't fast enough to operate without fighter escort.

And it's a bit much to crow about how ignorant everyone else is when you don't seem to realise Germany is further from Britain than France is.

Dave
 
Henri McPhee said:
There is quite an amusing article on the internet about the sheer ignorance of the facts of the modern British Herbert with regard to all this:
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As opposed to your own not at all amusing ignorance?

Dave Rogers said:
So did the British. So did everyone. The point you are missing is that, until the Mosquito came into service, which really was fast enough to outrun fighter defences, these fast bombers simply weren't fast enough to operate without fighter escort.

Dave
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Yeah the Luftwaffe bombers being slightly faster than the British fighters, when flying at their fuel guzzling top speed, is not that much help when the fighters are between the bombers and their target on the way in and between them and home on the way out...
 
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Henri McPhee said:
The point you are missing is that the Germans had a concept of the fast bomber which could outrun British fighter aircraft. The German bombers did not need fighter escort, until the Hurricanes and Spitfires came into service in 1939-40. The Gloster Gladiator, on which London's air defence capability depended in 1938, had a maximum speed of 257mph, which was too slow for the RAF.

There is quite an amusing article on the internet about the sheer ignorance of the facts of the modern British Herbert with regard to all this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...even-fewer-than-everyone-thought-5369212.html
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Nowhere does that article say RAF pilots in fighter command... so if it includes bomber, transport, recon, and trainer pilots then 6 out 10 would greatly exceed what I would have guessed at. I would've said 1 in 4.
 
The RAF pilots, whose victory forced Hitler to abandon his invasion plans,
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And the Navy, and lack of a real fleet and losing interest and preparing instead to attack Russia.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
And the Navy, and lack of a real fleet and losing interest and preparing instead to attack Russia.
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Yet again Henri dredges up a filler article from some newspaper website that's more interested in creating a headline than historical accuracy. The failure to gain even temporary air superiority in the Battle of Britain simply provided a good excuse for the German generals to scupper a plan they knew was impossible even as they wasted resources on preparations.
 
Henri McPhee said:
The point you are missing is that the Germans had a concept of the fast bomber which could outrun British fighter aircraft. The German bombers did not need fighter escort, until the Hurricanes and Spitfires came into service in 1939-40. The Gloster Gladiator, on which London's air defence capability depended in 1938, had a maximum speed of 257mph, which was too slow for the RAF.
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The Heinkel 111 P had a cruise speed of 190 mph with a full bomb load; the Do-17 was even slower. Additionally, the Gladiator's "maximum speed" was in level flight; it was even faster in a dive (as when diving to attack a bomber formation). So please explain again how the Gladiator wasn't fast enough.
 
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