School shooting Florida

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BobTheCoward said:
There are people who do want to take them away. They are telling you that on this forum.

I'm not secretly running a troll farm called analytics stress test based in Hungary that planting them here to say that using money I received from a mining oligarch.
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Yes, there will always be extreme positions. One one end, ban 'em all. On the other, free access to all weapons. The debate should be among the reasonable people who are not in the extreme, though. For all the restrictions the UK has, ownership is still common.

-Registration of firearms. A no-brainer.
-Annual licensing. Not a big deal.
-Semis/rapid fires banned and phased out. They serve no civilian purpose, and responsible sportsman can deal with the mild inconvenience of reloading more often. Small price to pay for reducing the massive potential for abuse, as the OP illustrates.
 
BobTheCoward said:
There are people who do want to take them away. They are telling you that on this forum.
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In here that amounts to Steve, who wants guns to go away in the same sort of way that pageant contestants want world peace. The vast vast majority of gun-control advocates would be perfectly happy with UK style gun control as a radical end goal. Practically nobody that has a real plan wants to make it so you can’t try to shoot the bears that want to eat you on your way to your car, the deer that you want to put on your table, etc.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Newt Gingrich says that every school should have a minimum of 6-8 armed teachers who are trained in the use of firearms and are prepared to defend students.
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Great. Now they want schoolteachers to be trained killers. I am really, really glad some of my former teachers were not armed.
 
Steve said:
You do not understand.

I am not convinced that a higher percentage of people in the world today are living longer, happier, healthier lives, than was the case back in the days before guns were possible. That you say this is true does not make it so.
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You must be joking. You can't possibly not know about the longer life expectancy, lower child mortality rates, lower rate of violent deaths, advances in medical science, comfort, etc.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Newt Gingrich says that every school should have a minimum of 6-8 armed teachers who are trained in the use of firearms and are prepared to defend students.
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Are they going to get the cop's "Well their hands went near their waist so i feared for my life" benefit of the doubt too?
 
crescent said:
They might sound like that, but I think liberals who want to ban guns or impose very, very serious restrictions really are a tiny minority of liberals.

I've been following this issue very closely since I was a teenager in the mid-1980's. I have had countless discussions with probably hundreds of people who support gun control. Very, very few supported a full ban. Most understand that target shooting and hunting are a thing. Most understand that private security often needs to be armed. Most understood that some people face much greater risk in life and have reason to have guns for self-defense.

I've never met anyone, ever, who said that the police and military should not have guns (unless that is what Mike in the thread is arguing). In the days since the Florida shooting, I've seen that specific strawman pop up often, it reeks of desperation and fear.

The thing is, it is easy, very easy, to find Republican politicians who thinks and will openly state that all abortion should be illegal. On websites that allow comments, articles about the shooting or about gun control are full of comments by people who openly advocate banning all abortion. It's not a secret position, it is an overtly popular opinion supported by many conservative religious leaders and politicians.

It is impossible to find a Democratic politician who believes all guns should be banned - the gun lobby has been pounding that lie my entire life and it is just as much a lie now as it was then. They are NOT coming for your guns. Even the most restrictive (and overturned) gun laws in D.C. did not ban all guns, and existing guns were grandfathered in (nobody came for anyone's guns).

You can find people who want to ban guns. You can find people who think the earth is flat. You can find people who think that Obama is a lizard person and that Donald Trump is Jesus. You can find people who believe anything you look for, the internet is like that.

I see things like what you've written, and it makes me angry. It's like you've gone your life believing the "they're coming for your guns" lie, and you want to finally accept that its a lie, but you can't quite bring yourself to go the full distance.

They are not coming for anybody's guns. Very few want to ban them. That's been the case virtually forever.
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Well put and agreed 100%.
 
What are cops irresponsible murders gunning down black folk at every opportunity or the only ones responsible enough to carry guns? I get so confused at what the party line is.
 
JoeMorgue said:
What are cops irresponsible murders gunning down black folk at every opportunity or the only ones responsible enough to carry guns? I get so confused at what the party line is.
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Get black men to buy AR-15s. They'll be banned in a week.
 
Lithrael said:
In here that amounts to Steve, who wants guns to go away in the same sort of way that pageant contestants want world peace. The vast vast majority of gun-control advocates would be perfectly happy with UK style gun control as a radical end goal. Practically nobody that has a real plan wants to make it so you can’t try to shoot the bears that want to eat you on your way to your car, the deer that you want to put on your table, etc.
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You got it! :D It is totally impractical and will never happen. I know that of course. Although I would really like to see no guns I will settle for the practical minimum number that can be legislated. UK (and Canadian) style gun control is headed in the right direction.
 
JoeMorgue said:
What are cops irresponsible murders gunning down black folk at every opportunity or the only ones responsible enough to carry guns? I get so confused at what the party line is.
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Did you even read what I wrote?

I've been following this issue very closely since I was a teenager in the mid-1980's. I have had countless discussions with probably hundreds of people who support gun control. Very, very few supported a full ban. Most understand that target shooting and hunting are a thing. Most understand that private security often needs to be armed. Most understood that some people face much greater risk in life and have reason to have guns for self-defense.

I've never met anyone, ever, who said that the police and military should not have guns (unless that is what Mike in the thread is arguing). In the days since the Florida shooting, I've seen that specific strawman pop up often, it reeks of desperation and fear.
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Please show me where the Democrats don't want hunters to have guns.
Please show me one Democratic politician who believes that police should not have access to firearms - there are some who would prefer police not wear sidearms on belts, but I've never heard of any proposing to take all guns away from the police.

Please find an example - just one example, of a Democratic politician supporting a full ban.
 
JoeMorgue said:
What are cops irresponsible murders gunning down black folk at every opportunity or the only ones responsible enough to carry guns? I get so confused at what the party line is.
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Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm going with the some cops are irresponsible, & some are murderers. We also need to do better at filtering them out & better at stopping their thin blue stop snitching thing.

As for the teachers, I hope they would get enough training to be effective in an active shooter situation, & that they would also be screened to filter out the ones who were irresponsible & murderers. Also, I would hope they wouldn't develop their own stop snitching culture.
 
JoeMorgue said:
*Slowly* It was a joke, or at least a bit of snark. Calm down.
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I am tired of calming down. I am furious. Everyone should be.

We just keep killing and getting killed.

I am going to stay plenty angry over this until changes are made.
 
Actually arming the teachers sounds lot more realistic than expecting the federal law to change. People keep thinking Wild West times are over. Well think again .. you got killed ? Means you were not fast enough with your gun. Oh you didn't even have a gun ? Poor you ..
 
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The 2nd amendment says:


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

We need to remember that when the constitution was drafted, guns were not just for hunting or self-defense or target practice. They were the weapons of war, which had just freed our country from the tyranny of the British government.

The reason no one in their right minds wants any kind of ban on guns that prevents guns from being readily accessed and used is to prevent our current government from becoming tyrannical. They have to take away the guns -or just keep making them harder and harder to get- before they can make many inroads against our other civil rights.

But, once it's impossible for the average person to get guns, all the average people are hostage to whatever happens next -the loss of free speech & the free press, being subject to search and seizures (ergo losing any guns they've hidden), etc.

No one in the USA wants that. Or, at least, no one in the USA should want that.

I think if the gun control advocates want to make real inroads toward finding ways to keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them, and lower the murder rate, they have to approach the issue with the reasons for the 2nd amendment's existence in mind.

Remember: the Constitution is not an ideal, or a best-case-scenario. It's the law.

In some ways, I'm jealous of those in the UK who see their government as a benevolent entity providing for the peoples and working with the overall health of the population in mind.

However, I'm quite American, and at the end of the day I do not -will never- trust our government to put the welfare of the citizens above the person desires of those in power. Nor do I have to go far to find examples of this happening already -from enacting laws forcing people to buy various forms of insurance to seizing assets from those merely suspected of a crime, many of us see the rights to bear arms as a necessity. If our government falls too far out of line with what most of us want, a revolution (or the mere ability to bring one) is the only thing that will protect our free states.
 
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