Is your atheism predominately a science success or a theism fail?

[Hlafordlaes]

Theism fail. Yahweh fell flaming in disgrace. Poetic justice.

 

[BadBoy]

Theists often defend their god beliefs by attacking science with silly comments like - “Science doesn’t know everything, Science isn’t always right, Science can’t explain love”, etc. My response is usually - “So what? I’m an atheist mainly because theism has failed to convince me any god exists. Take away science and I would still be an atheist. Don’t blame science for the failure of theism”.

As I’ve never had a god belief (or any paranormal belief) I’m wondering if others are atheists predominately because of the success of science or the failure of theism.

For me you could call it a fail for religion because they missed me. My parents were probably default atheists. I mean religions and the associated dogma never came up in my family. Was just never a thing we talked about.

Growing up I had an odd distrust of anything that was institutionalized. It wasn't a conscious decision, but church's and prayer and priests used to make me uneasy for some reason. (not because they were religious necessarily, but because they stunk of rules and hierarchy and conformity I think). Anyway, that made be an atheist by default.

It wasn't until I was researching anthropogenic related global warming after reading Michael Crichton's novel “State of Fear” I came across JRef and conspiracy theories and a way to start thinking about claims and the world which led me firmly to atheism.

 

[Seismosaurus]

I don't ever remember a time when I took the claims of theism seriously.

In the UK, when I grew up, we had religious assemblies all the time. Group prayer, hymns, etc. I never really thought about it as something real. It was just another thing the adults made you do, like wearing a uniform or going to classes. So I'd say the lord's prayer, but the idea that there actually was a lord as a serious proposition just never really occurred to me. And the little speeches they'd give were about stuff like being a nice person, being honest, etc. Not particularly religious.

I don't recall anybody ever sitting me down and trying to convince me that this stuff was real, and I had to believe in it. My parents pretty much just ignored religion.

By the time I got to an age where I started to grasp that people really did think there was an actual real god, I was old enough to think that these people were doing something strange and a bit daft.

So I'd guess you would call that a theism fail. Without parental indoctrination, nobody else caught me early enough and hit me hard enough with it.

Science played a part too. As I learned more about science, it became rather obvious that there isn't a god, or at least, there isn't a god that is particularly interested in humanity. The scale of the universe alone makes the idea that we are special to it utterly preposterous.

 

[Cheetah]

That sounds so nice, I had religion in my life since I could remember, every day. What is even worse is it was not just my family but the whole community.
Every white Afrikaner family took pride in their religion and kids went to Sunday school and at least the morning service literally every freekin Sunday and preferably to the evening one as well. School was full of it as well.

 

[MikeG]

Of course things are subject to change, and maybe I just haven't connected with the right brand of theism. I found a new contender here, though:

Superb!

 

[The Norseman]

Of course things are subject to change, and maybe I just haven't connected with the right brand of theism. I found a new contender here, though:

Absolutely hilarious, thanks! I've sent it off to my (almost 22 year old) daughter hoping she hasn't seen it yet. She sees all the fun crap that I seem to catch usually years after.

 

[Seismosaurus]

That sounds so nice, I had religion in my life since I could remember, every day. What is even worse is it was not just my family but the whole community.

It's often hard for people from strongly religious countries to really grasp just how irrelevant religion is to most people in the UK. Admittedly, most people self-identify as religious. But there are millions of people who would say they are Church of England, say, who never go into a church in their lives. Except maybe for the "big three" of christenings, weddings, and funerals.

I've heard Americans say that "What church do you go to?" is a common 'getting to know you' kind of question there. I've literally never been asked that in my entire life, and never heard it asked of anybody else either. I've only ever met three of four people who mentioned that they go to church regularly at all. As a matter of day-to-day practicality, for most people religion is really just a complete non-issue here.

Hell, just look at Tony Blair. The man was probably the most religious politician in living memory, and when Paxman asked him straight out if he and George Bush had prayed together, Blair positively squirmed in embarrassment as he said "No!"

 

[The Big Dog]

That sounds so nice, I had religion in my life since I could remember, every day. What is even worse is it was not just my family but the whole community.
Every white Afrikaner family took pride in their religion and kids went to Sunday school and at least the morning service literally every freekin Sunday and preferably to the evening one as well. School was full of it as well.

That sounds so nice! Pride in religion and building and maintaining communities? Fantastic. I bet you got to participate in so many worthwhile projects, both fun and charitable.

So nice.

 

[MikeG]

That sounds so nice! Pride in....building and maintaining communities? Fantastic. I bet you got to participate in so many worthwhile projects, both fun and charitable.

So nice.

FTFY.

You don't have to be a victim of myths and lies to enjoy good projects and communities.

 

[bruto]

That sounds so nice! Pride in religion and building and maintaining communities? Fantastic. I bet you got to participate in so many worthwhile projects, both fun and charitable.

So nice.

I suppose it depends a little on how old Cheetah is, but I think it possible that you missed a little irony here.

Membership in a church community can certainly be beneficial and nice, but you must surely be aware that the trappings of religious belief can be turned to other purposes too. Here's an anonymous letter my sister got when she was marching for civil rights oh so long ago. Many well meaning and sensible people saw the need for civil rights in their religious principles, but many others saw the opposite in theirs. It's straight Bible here:

View attachment anonymous letter0002.pdf

 

[aleCcowaN]

It's often hard for people from strongly religious countries to really grasp just how irrelevant religion is to most people in the UK. Admittedly, most people self-identify as religious. But there are millions of people who would say they are Church of England, say, who never go into a church in their lives. Except maybe for the "big three" of christenings, weddings, and funerals.

You could replace "UK" with "Buenos Aires and mid-class Argentina" and it would be as true. I'd personally erase christenings from that list because I find it to be pretty disgusting for my taste. Both in weddings and funerals the priests here are prudent to keep the religious bits to a minimum (like Father Brown's), except in the rare cases of weddings with mass and the less uncommon masses in commemoration of the departed.

I have to say that the existence of religiosity, circumcision, bible belt, creationism and all the crap that exists in the USA really baffles me: it's something extremely alien to my cultural bracket, and I'm not particularly "a British Argentine" but a run-of-the-mill "white Argentine" to this matter (Juan Pueblo is far more interested in the pope to be an Argentine and fan on San Lorenzo Athletic Club than he being the pope)

 

[aleCcowaN]

That sounds so nice! Pride in religion and building and maintaining communities? Fantastic. I bet you got to participate in so many worthwhile projects, both fun and charitable.

So nice.

I suppose it depends a little on how old Cheetah is, but I think it possible that you missed a little irony here.

provided "little" was intended as litotes

 

[acbytesla]

That sounds so nice! Pride in building and maintaining communities? Fantastic. I bet you got to participate in so many worthwhile projects, both fun and charitable.

So nice.

FTFY.

You don't have to be a victim of myths and lies to enjoy good projects and communities.

It was very hard for me to leave my church. I had grown up in the church and saw other members of the church as almost family. The one thing church does provide is community. It also allows one to climb beyond being self centered. It makes your own needs as a secondary concern for yourself. It's the one aspect I miss.

But the price was too high for me. I felt like an idiot pretending that almost any of it was true and real. It also left me believing that an actual afterlife was impossible for me if it was true because I could never get myself to actually believe these stories were true. God is the greatest most powerful being in the universe and he can't find an easier way to forgive man then to come down to earth in human form and be tortured for 3 days? The being supposedly created the world and life on it in 6 days? It's absurd. So if there is this God that actually knew what I thought he would KNOW that I was carrying on a charade. I feel like I understand to a small degree what gay people must have felt like when they were in the closet.

There ARE so many good things about church but demanding people believe bs is not one of them. I tried for a long time to stay in the church. I verv much wanted to throw the baby out with the bath water. But i came to the conclusion I really wanted to throw out the baby and keep some of the bath water.

But that's not allowed. One must pretend that nonsense is true to keep the community.

 

[Cheetah]

That sounds so nice! Pride in religion and building and maintaining communities? Fantastic. I bet you got to participate in so many worthwhile projects, both fun and charitable.

So nice.

There are always nice aspects, but you cannot believe how incredibly difficult it can be to rid yourself of all the nonsense after a lifetime of indoctrination, or maybe you can, no you cannot, can you?

 

[Pope130]

-snipped-
I've heard Americans say that "What church do you go to?" is a common 'getting to know you' kind of question there. I've literally never been asked that in my entire life, and never heard it asked of anybody else either.
-snip-

Not common in my experience. I've spent over fifty (of sixty-two) years in the US, and have not been asked that question since first grade. That may be, in part, from growing up in Oregon, where tolerance and respect for privacy are more common. However, seven years in the 'Bible Belt' country of North Carolina in the '90s didn't see the issue raised either.

 

[Cheetah]

I get asked it occasionally, though mostly older people.

 

[acbytesla]

I get asked it occasionally, though mostly older people.

Most people don't bring up religion unless you are outwardly religious. Another Christian might ask someone else who is obviously Christian where they attend church but even most Christians aren't out there pushing God unless they are Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Admittedly, most people self-identify as religious.

Not even that is true any more

I'll back up the rest of what you said, though. As an anecdotal example, I worked with a guy for 5 years before I had any idea he was even vaguely religious. I only found out because he was a scout master and, on a long drive, I asked him about the requirement in scouts to have prayers, etc. as that was something I'd heard about recently but which hadn't previously informed my view of what scouts was about (not even reported by my brother, who was one). His reply was that he just ignored all that side of it, because he didn't think it was useful, and he didn't consider his own beliefs that important.

And that last part of that last sentence, I think, generally sums up the religiosity of most Christians in Great Britain. I don't have any personal experience of Northern Ireland, but I have no doubt that Christianity is more significant over there, and not just for historically.

 

[JayUtah]

The one thing church does provide is community. It also allows one to climb beyond being self centered. It makes your own needs as a secondary concern for yourself. It's the one aspect I miss.

I know plenty of people who are "religious" solely for the social contact. They couldn't tell you -- or probably care less -- what their church taught on any particular subject beyond common-knowledge Christianity. For them it's just the Sunday morning coffee klatch. And that's absolutely fine with me, since those are the people who seem least likely to do anything to which others might object.

However if, like me, you live in a state dominated by a particular religious sect, that sense of community has a dark side. Mormons express a tremendous sense of community, much of which has positive outcomes. But it's such a proportionally large community that non-Mormons easily feel like second-class citizens.

That's merely a social consequence, but here the community leaks over into things like employment, housing, social services, etc. that really need to be free from interference. At places I've worked, it's not uncommon to see employees at various levels of the company talking openly about church activities, participation, etc. to the extent you suspect that work and church are really just facets of the same community. This makes it hard to have confidence in employment-related decisions -- hiring, firing, promotions, etc. Though not universal, it happens often enough that firms would rather hire, and landlords would rather rent to, people "from within the faith." And while that's illegal, it's easy to get away with. And with our legislature currently in session, most relevant conversations revolve around what the Mormon church is going to say about each bill, which has historically correlated with whether the bill passes. There is widespread suspicion that some state legislators simply do what their church leaders say, though that's denied from both directions.. But it sure doesn't help that the capitol building is just a couple blocks away from Mormon HQ.

That's my particular experience living in a highly religious area. I've heard similar stories from other places in the U.S. where religion is dominant for social and community reasons as well. I wouldn't say this is the same everywhere I've lived.

My atheism comes from simply not believing in the religion. The religion doesn't have to "fail" per se in any colossal or embarrassing way for me to arrive at that decision. But in my case, where religion often flexes its muscles in ways I find inappropriate, I become a more active atheist. Which is to say, I oppose the inappropriate intrusion of religion, not for what is believed, but for what is done. You could probably chalk that up as a "theism fail," but I think it has more to do with ordinary community behavior. People can act like jerks without it being related to a belief in God.

The success of science doesn't really affect my atheism. I work with dozens upon dozens of scientists and other scientifically-minded people who are also active Mormons (and not jerks about it). Their theistic beliefs don't affect, or seem affected by, their ability to be good scientists. Granted the science we do doesn't really get into places where science and Mormonism would clash. But I think one's adoption of science and a scientific mode of thinking doesn't really necessitate some particular theistic or atheistic belief.

 

[Thor 2]

It was very hard for me to leave my church. I had grown up in the church and saw other members of the church as almost family. The one thing church does provide is community. It also allows one to climb beyond being self centered. It makes your own needs as a secondary concern for yourself. It's the one aspect I miss.

I know plenty of people who are "religious" solely for the social contact. They couldn't tell you -- or probably care less -- what their church taught on any particular subject beyond common-knowledge Christianity. For them it's just the Sunday morning coffee klatch. And that's absolutely fine with me, since those are the people who seem least likely to do anything to which others might object.

Having never been part of a religious community this social aspect is not something I am familiar with.

Although my parents were not church go-ers, I was subjected to religious indoctrination as a child when dragged off (heals making furrows in the ground), to church and Sunday school, as a guest of parents of friends who were church go-ers. My parents had the idea (fairly common at the time), that some religion wouldn't do me any harm.

More than disliking the experience, I felt repelled by the church atmosphere. The harm was done none the less and I was convinced of the existence of Hell. How could I not believe Hell to be real as a child when everybody else did? How could I not be convinced this was my ultimate destination, when I felt such a repulsion of the institution that would save me.

My relief when I read Bertrand Russell was profound. For the first time in my life I found the existence of God, the Devil etc to be in question, and in fact defied basic reason.