Brexit: Now What? Part IV

[Tolls]

Once again ceptimus shows his ignorance about the WTO and how the customs union works.

Even worse, he seems to think that plucky old Britain will have just as much muscle to argue their case with the WTO as the entire EU.

The word "delusional" springs to mind.

 

[Aber]

Northern Ireland can't be in full alignment with the Internal Market and Customs Union

And that was NOT what was agreed. There were a load of caveats attached which means that both sides could read it differently as to what was intended.

those rules ... which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

 

[The Don]

Once again ceptimus shows his ignorance about the WTO and how the customs union works.

Even worse, he seems to think that plucky old Britain will have just as much muscle to argue their case with the WTO as the entire EU.

The word "delusional" springs to mind.

We'll have more, because we won't have those feckless foreigners holding us back

 

[Information Analyst]

Now try to grasp this: if one country has freedom of movement within the EU and the other doesn't, then it is impossible to have a Common Travel Area, isn't it.

I'd say that even with a hard border, the CTA can still apply, but - and it's a big but - there will still have to be border controls. Brits travelling to Ireland, and Irish travelling to the UK can still move without restriction, but they will still be subject to customs checks, and proving they are British/Irish citizens. The CTA has only been about the free movement of British and Irish citizens, not goods.

 

[Information Analyst]

If the EU doesn't impose a hard border and neither does the UK then guess what, there won't be a hard border! I don't see why you're all struggling to understand this. Yes you will be able to transport goods across the border - including cigarettes and wine. So what? This is no change from the current situation that seems to be working perfectly well.

 

[Information Analyst]

Yes they can just walk or drive or ride across the border. So what? This is the situation that applies right now, and the UK government has promised that it won't change to a hard border after Brexit. It's necessary to preserve the trade between the two parts of Ireland, and is a requirement of the Good Friday agreement. We can take other measures against any immigrants that aren't allowed by the rules after Brexit - we can prevent them from working, or living or banking in the UK for example - just as we do with illegal immigrants right now. Of course we have to catch them first - again just as we have to right now with illegal migrants - so some will, of course escape justice.

Cosidering how many Leave supporters banged on about controlling immigration, hand-waving away the implications of a soft Ireland/UK border seems staggering hypocritical. Perhaps you don't fully understand the implications of what you claim to be happy with?

At the moment, who are the illegal migrants? They are anyone from outside of the EU. Who will be the illegal migrants after Brexit? They will be anyone from outside the UK. Potential illegal migrants will then include people from within the EU, as well as outside it.

Mainland EU citizens will be able to freely travel to Ireland, then - if there are no physical border checks - cross the border into Northern Ireland, and thence make their way to the rest fo the UK. As other have repeatedly pointed out, we can't put passport controls between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, because the Unionists won't accept that.

Basically you have gone from a position of complaining about having a hole in your bucket, to not complaining when there are two holes, because you got a nice new blue handle on the bucket

 

[Pixel42]

At the moment, who are the illegal migrants? They are anyone from outside of the EU. Who will be the illegal migrants after Brexit? They will be anyone from outside the EU.

I think the highlighted should say UK.

 

[Information Analyst]

I think the highlighted should say UK.

Bah!

 

[Andy_Ross]

What do you think keeps the people in the Calais jungle from taking the "via Ireland" route right now? Why do you think this will be any different after Brexit?

They aren't EU citizens for a start.
Any EU citizen can move unrestricted to Ireland whenever they want.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It seems you're all saying that the EU will have to impose a hard border where their member country, Ireland, meets Northern Ireland.

If the EU is going to impose a hard border why is it asking that the UK make a legal commitment not to do so? This makes no sense.


If the EU doesn't impose a hard border and neither does the UK then guess what, there won't be a hard border! I don't see why you're all struggling to understand this. Yes you will be able to transport goods across the border - including cigarettes and wine. So what? This is no change from the current situation that seems to be working perfectly well.

So you are staying in the common market then with all that entails, and leaving it was never an option? That seems to go against what brexit was all about.

You see fundamentally there is no difference in terms of what the UK can and can not do between Ireland and Poland. Hard border with poland hard border with Ireland. Open border with Ireland open border with poland.

Not picking and choosing which EU country gets treated in what fashion seems to be a pretty fundamental part of the EU. Look at the issue with the US and Visas.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Europe buys plenty of stuff from countries outside the EU. Agreed they won't buy stuff that doesn't comply with their regs - that's fine. If they don't want to buy some stuff no one is forcing them to do that.

Yes no one is saying a hard border would entirely stop trade. Trade happens across all kinds of borders that have tariffs and duties and so on on them.

 

[fagin]

I think the fundamental problem is that the world is a very complicated place, and most brexiteers are very simple people.

The rest being quite insane.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There's a bloke goes in the pub voted Brexit because he wants old styke filament light bulbs back. Seems to think leaving the EU will see an end to LED bulbs. He also seems to think it will mean an end to renewable energy and wind turbines, solar panels etc. We will be able to re open coal kines and coal fired power stations. ( he says 'renewable' as though it was a rude word.
Funny thing on the coal mines, he approved of the closure of the mines in the 80s.

There's another bloke is looking forward to a return to 'propet' vaccuum cleaners. Thinks that Dysons and the Numatic ' Henry' are an EU plot.
Pointed out that Dyson are a British company even though they manufacture abroad and the Henry is the single most popular cleaner on sale and is actually made in the UK.

People are using Brexit as some kind if personal Nirvana that will fix whatever their irrational dislike happens to be.

 

[ceptimus]

So you are staying in the common market then with all that entails, and leaving it was never an option? That seems to go against what brexit was all about.

No, we are leaving the EU, the customs union, and the single market, but we're also promising not to install a hard border in Ireland. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Yes it's something of a fudge, but that's often the nature of politics.

 

[Craig B]

I'd say that even with a hard border, the CTA can still apply, but - and it's a big but - there will still have to be border controls. Brits travelling to Ireland, and Irish travelling to the UK can still move without restriction, but they will still be subject to customs checks, and proving they are British/Irish citizens. The CTA has only been about the free movement of British and Irish citizens, not goods.

Then there will have to be passport control to establish nationality status, when there was no passport check under the CTA.

Here's another question. As a U.K. Citizen I will be able to cross from "Southern Ireland" into the "Six Counties" or vice versa, once I have proved my uk nationality. I will not be an EU citizen. Along comes a busload of Polish plumbers, who are EU citizens. Will they be treated any less favourably by the RoI officials because they're not part of the CTA, but the (non-EU) UK citizen can go where and when he or she pleases. In short, can an EU State make arrangements with a non-EU state to treat its citizens more favourably as regards freedom of movement, than it treats the citizens of other EU states?

Anyway I take it that we all agree that whatever may be the answer to that question, the future arrangements will necessitiate the creation of border posts, passport checks, and all the rest of the panoply of measures that accompany these institutions wherever they exist.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

There's a bloke goes in the pub voted Brexit because he wants .....

People are using Brexit as some kind if personal Nirvana that will fix whatever their irrational dislike happens to be.

Don't forget forcing other people to breath your cigarette smoke, a coinage system no-one under 55 understands, and the death penalty.

 

[Hubert Cumberdale]

No, we are leaving the EU, the customs union, and the single market, but we're also promising not to install a hard border in Ireland. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Yes it's something of a fudge, but that's often the nature of politics.

You have already been told why this is not possible.

Why don't you read what you are told?

Do you even understand what a hard border is?

Do you even understand that if there is no hard border with Ireland, then there is no hard border with the EU?

Do you even understand that there is no such thing as an "Irish" border, there is only an EU border?

 

[ceptimus]

You have already been told why this is not possible.

Yes, but the government don't accept that - and even the EU admitted that "sufficient progress had been made" to move on to the next stage of talks once their bribe payment was increased sufficiently.

Why don't you read what you are told?

I do.

Do you even understand what a hard border is?

Yes. Do you?

Do you even understand that if there is no hard border with Ireland, then there is no hard border with the EU?

Why do you think both the UK government and the EU think it is possible then? It's called political expediency

Do you even understand that there is no such thing as an "Irish" border, there is only an EU border?

What would you like to call the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? Calling it the "EU border" would seem designed to promote misunderstanding and confusion: there are lots of EU borders.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, we are leaving the EU, the customs union, and the single market, but we're also promising not to install a hard border in Ireland. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Yes it's something of a fudge, but that's often the nature of politics.

You can't have open boarders to the EU without those thing though. And here is the big thing, Ireland is part of the EU. The EU has never been all that keen on carving out some trade and migration rules for some EU members but not others.

Why will France, Poland, Germany and so on sign up for having a closed border with the UK but one that has an open border with Ireland? It seems perfectly reasonable to say that UK-EU trade and travel should be standardized no matter where the border between them is.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, but the government don't accept that - and even the EU admitted that "sufficient progress had been made" to move on to the next stage of talks once their bribe payment was increased sufficiently.

Governments can decide not to accept basic reality as much as they want, that doesn't change anything.