The Deep State and its real motives

[Belz...]

Only for very peculiar values of hard-left. Peculiar to the US.

No, in Canada and Europe as well.

 

[varwoche]

I think you might be underestimating how much influence far-left ideas have had.

In any case, both the loony left and the loony right are trying to control your life, so we should be concerned in both cases.

OK, then please provide evidence of high-level, elected Dem officials flogging "deep state" conspiracies.

 

[timhau]

Pfft. I can see you're new to this. How about the Deep Hidden Authority Reigning the Inner State (DHARIS)?

Duh. That's the cover for Deep Internal Patriarchal State Heading Into Totalitarian Socialism.

 

[quadraginta]

Some might see the popularity in the last election of Bernie Sanders as evidence of such a movement.

Only if they are idiots.

...and ignorant.

 

[quadraginta]

No.

He's far enough to the left that some would see him as "loony left".

He's almost far enough to the left that in most of the rest of the world he might qualify as a moderate.

There are people who think Obama was a communist.

Those aren't people who actually "think".

 

[LSSBB]

I always think Deep State sounds like a hidden subterranean kingdom of mole people. We should make friends with them, they know where all the gold and oil is!

No, it's the jockeys...

 

[JoeMorgue]

Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Deep state sounds much more insidious, but ultimately we know there is validity to the idea of bureaucracy, so it's a concept worth discussing in the current, and any political context.

That's sort of where I'm at with this.

If any truth comes from any of this braying conspiracy nonsense I doubt it will be functionally different from "A lot of people never bothered to understand even basic civics so finally learning how the government has always worked sounds like an evil conspiracy to them."

I get it's sort of a cynical take on it but what the point of a vast conspiracy shadow government in a country where most of the citizens don't bother to learn how their actual government actually functions?

As the old one liner goes "I tell you man this government thing... it's got its paws in everything and it goes all the way to the top!"

 

[Belz...]

OK, then please provide evidence of high-level, elected Dem officials flogging "deep state" conspiracies.

Er... that wasn't my claim. I said that both have political clout and that both want to impose their views.

 

[LSSBB]

The "Deep State" concept has the same flaw as all such conspiratroll conjectures - how does this Deep State set agendas and communicate in execution? Who is coordinating and how?c

Note that most conspiratroll fantasies mention Soros or Obama as running the show, yet they never have any evidence of the thousands of meetings, messages, and money trail it would take to make that happen.

 

[Hans]

The "Deep State" concept has the same flaw as all such conspiratroll conjectures - how does this Deep State set agendas and communicate in execution? Who is coordinating and how?c

Note that most conspiratroll fantasies mention Soros or Obama as running the show, yet they never have any evidence of the thousands of meetings, messages, and money trail it would take to make that happen.

The greatest flaw in the idea is that there would be only ONE deep state. As human history has shown power breeds conflict and competition.

In reality you'd have competing 'deep states'.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The "Deep State" concept has the same flaw as all such conspiratroll conjectures - how does this Deep State set agendas and communicate in execution? Who is coordinating and how?c

Note that most conspiratroll fantasies mention Soros or Obama as running the show, yet they never have any evidence of the thousands of meetings, messages, and money trail it would take to make that happen.

That's always the point where these stories start to break down. These power hungry, control obsessed people... can form groups so tightly formed and perfectly in cohesion that they can maintain this level of facade.

If there was so secret cabal of powerful people pulling the strings it would immediately fall apart because it would turn into a nest of backstabbing skulduggery that would make Game of Thrones look like a Sesame Street skit on sharing.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

No.

He's far enough to the left that some would see him as "loony left".

There are people who think Obama was a communist.

Ah, I assumed that when you said "some might say" you either meant "I would say" or "rational people might say", rather than "some random, ignorant loony might say".

 

[varwoche]

Er... that wasn't my claim. I said that both have political clout and that both want to impose their views.

Unfortunately, that wasn't the quite the conversation into which you interjected. Pay better attention please.

 

[Belz...]

Unfortunately, that wasn't the quite the conversation into which you interjected. Pay better attention please.

Dude, you said:

Big difference, which you continuously overlook when you foist this equivalency from your middle-ground high horse...

The loony left is by and large a fringe phenomenon. Whereas the loony right is running the country.

Yes dudalb was talking about the deep state claims but your post is a much broader claim, especially the highlighted, which I addressed. If what you meant was directed only at the claim of "deep state", then your post was poorly-composed.

 

[dudalb]

Dude, you said:



Yes dudalb was talking about the deep state claims but your post is a much broader claim, especially the highlighted, which I addressed. If what you meant was directed only at the claim of "deep state", then your post was poorly-composed.

I has some of the conspiracy crap you heard coming from the left during the Bush 2 administration...the 9/11 Truther BS in particular. And ,yes, you find Truthers on both sides of the political spectrum but during the Dubya years The Truther movement had a definent left wing tilt to it.

 

[xterra]

But I really want it to be malice!

Malice in wonderland?

 

[Travis]

Fox News is still flogging the idea that DOJ needs to investigate the political leanings of all its employees and retain only those loyal to Trump.

Scary, scary stuff.

 

[Belz...]

No way they'd say anything like that during Obama.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The legislators aren't that stupid. Bigoted? Yes. Hypocritical? Yes. But not that stupid.

I'm not so sure. Some of them seem to truly believe some of this stuff.

The latest GOP Congressman repeating the 'secret society' nonsense yesterday gave a common answer when someone questions you believing them, he claimed the information came from an informant.

Today when the facts came out it was a joke about a Putin calendar gag gift he conveniently had nothing to say about the said informant from yesterday that he said had supported his belief.

You see this all the time. Someone shares a story that is far fetched. You question their gullibility. They then assert it's true, it happened to my [friend, cousin, teacher, anyone that now makes the repeated story closer to first hand].

We have a need to be believed even when sharing an anecdote we heard.

A voice of reason is the quickest way to talk yourself out of winning any GOP primary these days.

Sadly.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Fox News is still flogging the idea that DOJ needs to investigate the political leanings of all its employees and retain only those loyal to Trump.

Scary, scary stuff.

I have visions of a completely alt-right skewed court, alt-right skewed FBI, and a Congress that refuses to check or balance the POTUS.