• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

The Deep State and its real motives

caveman1917 said:
No he isn't, he deflects it. You seem to be completely missing the dynamic here.

Let's consider 1920's-30's Europe where you can see this dynamic playing out in high-gear. On the one hand you have the communists/socialists making structural arguments against economic elites. On the other hand you have the nazis who claim to "also be socialists" but deflect those structural arguments by making it into a conspiracy theory (ie the Jewish conspiracy which rules us all).

At the time there was a real threat of revolution, so you see this dynamic kick into high gear. But it's the same dynamic playing out in low-gear at other times. Suppose you're giving a speech about structural power imbalances under capitalism and its effects on the state, and someone jumps on stage next to you and starts screaming: "you're totally right! The Reptilian overlords are in a conspiracy with the elites to rule us all!". In whose interest do you think that is?

Yet at the time the biggest benefactor of the NSDAP was big business. Why do you think that is? Because when their power base is being threatened, it's in the interests of those in power to deflect criticism of it. By your logic economic elites in 1920's-30's Germany would have tried to do move against the NSDAP because reasons, thereby letting the narrative against power imbalances be dominated by those (communists/socialists) who would actually threaten their power base. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
Click to expand...

You remind me of a Christian trying to explain why God had his Son tortured to death.

And then tries to make me feel guilty about it.
 
Darth Rotor said:
@Toontown (He got better. Did you read the whole book?) ;)
Click to expand...

Not the whole book. But I did read enough to gather that being flayed and crucified hurts very bad for a long time. I also gathered that Jesus asked God to let him off the hook (let this cup pass from me), and was apparently told to suck it up and suffer.

The part I never did get was how it all made perfect sense.
 
Last edited:
There is no political body or individual who is part of the mythical "Deep State". To the extent it is construed as an actor with direction and a purpose opposed to actual politics, the concept belongs in Conspiracy Theories.
 
Well, it's certainly a conspiracy theory. But since it's one that's touted seriously by the POTUS, I think a thread discussing it belongs in USA Politics.

Still, if you want to, feel free to report it to the mods, and they can decide.
 
Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Deep state sounds much more insidious, but ultimately we know there is validity to the idea of bureaucracy, so it's a concept worth discussing in the current, and any political context.
 
Last edited:
Pterodactyl said:
Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Deep state sounds much more insidious, but ultimately we know there is validity to the idea of bureaucracy, so it's a concept worth discussing in the current, and any political context.
Click to expand...

Functionally yes, practically no. Deep State is also the idea that the bureaucracy is fundamentally partisan and engaging in political manipulation. It isn't just reframing it in more frightening language but attributing motive and effect. See the writing off of the FBI as being entirely out to get Trump the whole time and so on.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Functionally yes, practically no. Deep State is also the idea that the bureaucracy is fundamentally partisan and engaging in political manipulation. It isn't just reframing it in more frightening language but attributing motive and effect. See the writing off of the FBI as being entirely out to get Trump the whole time and so on.
Click to expand...

I see your point (and this is the point that I think is worth debating about the use of the term) but a bureaucracy tends to act as a moderating force on political extremes in either direction, if by no other means than its inefficiency in implementation of changes. So, i think for someone like Trump, or conversely if Bernie had been elected, a bureaucracy is always going to seem like it is partisan even if it really is not.
 
Pterodactyl said:
I see your point (and this is the point that I think is worth debating about the use of the term) but a bureaucracy tends to act as a moderating force on political extremes in either direction, if by no other means than its inefficiency in implementation of changes. So, i think for someone like Trump, or conversely if Bernie had been elected, a bureaucracy is always going to seem like it is partisan even if it really is not.
Click to expand...

And now you are bringing facts into a conspiracy theory. It is about discrediting the government and making it easier to concentrate power into individuals loyal to the president. Like how all negative facts are discredited as "Fake News"
 
My two cents:
Its a scare label but:

If you mean a concerted effort with the government bureaucracy to achieve particular political goals, that almost certain doesn't exist and in the absence of more evidence, is just a CT.

If you mean, government bureaucrats have incentives that mean they tend to support particular political goals and these biases result in bureaucracies collectively acting to aid or hinder the agenda of elected officials then you probably have point worth talking about. Numerous cabinet secretaries have complained about how hard it is to get the bureaucracies to change. If anything should be taken from Benghazi its that this form of the "Deep State" occasionally gets people killed.

I do think the second form almost certainly benefits Democrat administrations. Seriously, if you have a boss who got his job in part by promising to get rid of a bunch of jobs in your department, reduce your benefits, and make you work harder, you're not going to give it your all to advance their agenda.
 
Last edited:
To be fair though, I think it is highly likely that a majority of agency employees throughout the federal government recognize Trump's incompetence. I think it's likely that some of these people aren't optimally working to implement his agenda on political or moral grounds.

Edit to add: "or moral" grounds.

I think even many conservative government employees are not keen to advance Trump's plans.
 
Last edited:
Pterodactyl said:
Somebody before made the argument that the terms "Deep State" and "Bureaucracy" have effectively the same meanings.
Deep state sounds much more insidious, but ultimately we know there is validity to the idea of bureaucracy, so it's a concept worth discussing in the current, and any political context.
Click to expand...

I always understood the Deep State as the theorized puppetmasters behind the scenes, and bureaucracy as the mindless machination in full view.
 
If the crew of the supertanker doesn't make it turn on a dime, even if the new captain tells them to, the logical move is to fire/court martial everyone and sink the ship.
It's the only way to make sure the vessel doesn't sail another mile in the wrong direction.

I consider the Deep State to be more equivalent to institutional inertia.
 
Last edited:
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I thought the subject of the alleged "Deep State" probably deserved a thread of its own. Especially as I couldn't think of a suitable thread in which to post this fun nugget: Rush Limbaugh opines that the Deep State were responsible for planting fake evidence about Saddam Hussain having WMD's, in order to embarrass Bush

It's quite a versatile theory, this "Deep State" - you can use it to excuse anything by anybody, it seems.
Click to expand...

The Deep State is just a facade for the Deep Hidden Inner Secret State (DHISS) yah gotta watch out for
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom