Do we live in a Patriarchy? What is that?

[pharphis]

Nothing you’re saying has anything to do with what I said. I suspect that’s because you prefer to steer the conversation towards the comfort of your talking points. Which is why my desire to further engage with you continues to dwindle.

Maybe you can explain to poor stupid me what the problem is, then.

 

[The Norseman]

How long is the paid leave part? I bet it's not 5-15 years which is a typical number of years for a mother to stay home to raise the child full-time.

Depends on the country but the most I've seen is two years. It isn't enough if five years is your goal, obviously, but the US has zero mandatory time and no job retention at all.

I wasn't criticizing the quoted posters, just using them as examples.

 

[Tony]

I love this post.

I notice a lot of people these days are starting to love that type of retrograde bigotry.

 

[rustypouch]

Only in America is this even an issue. I mean, every other first world and probably second world country in the world gives mandatory paid leave for both parents as well as job security upon returning to the workforce. "Focus on the Family" in the US is a pathetic lie.

It's disgusting that the attitudes expressed like the following are even a thing:

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Why is that disgusting?

Is it reasonable to expect someone who takes a few years off to come back at the same level as someone who didn't take the time off?

I know I spent many years outside the professional workforce, and because of that choice, my career is not in the same place compared to others my age. I don't expect to be compensated at the same level as someone who has several years' more experience than me.

 

[Belz...]

Let's presume that the norms allow for male politicians, CEOs, etc. to more easily access those positions of power than women.

It's not just social norms, though. There's a real difference between what drives men and women, in general. It'd be a bit silly to assume that the differences are essentially all due to deliberate discrimination, or even unconscious discrimination. The human animal is a complex thing, especially when taken as a society.

 

[Belz...]

If society was one thing and then at some point stopped being that thing, that’s a historical, documented event to which people making this claim can point.

Ever heard of progressive transitions? What makes you think you could, assuming we could agree that it was a patriarchy before, spot a moment where it stopped being so?

That women have to hear the “uncomfortable truth” that they are faced with the procreation vs career dilemma while men do not is exactly the point.

That dilemma is due to differing biology. What would you have us do about it?

I like how in your imaginary scenario it's the woman making all the demands on the poor, beleaguered man while she gets to do whatever she wants.

That certainly doesn't reveal any bias.

I see you've never been a married man.

Yeah, because there is zero outside pressure on women to have kids..... they just choose to have them all by themselves.

- "Why'd you get pregnant, honey?"
- "Society made me do it!"

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Why is that disgusting?

Is it reasonable to expect someone who takes a few years off to come back at the same level as someone who didn't take the time off?

I know I spent many years outside the professional workforce, and because of that choice, my career is not in the same place compared to others my age. I don't expect to be compensated at the same level as someone who has several years' more experience than me.

It seems almost too obvious to need mentioning, really. All other things being equal, taking five years off mid-career will incur costs. If Michael Jordan had taken five years off in his prime, he'd be less likely to come back at full strength.

 

[Belz...]

It seems almost too obvious to need mentioning, really. All other things being equal, taking five years off mid-career will incur costs. If Michael Jordan had taken five years off in his prime, he'd be less likely to come back at full strength.

So you think women should just stay in the kitchen and make you a sandwich, then?

(Sorry, I'm trying to emulate left-wingers on this. How'd I do?)

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

So you think women should just stay in the kitchen and make you a sandwich, then?

(Sorry, I'm trying to emulate left-wingers on this. How'd I do?)

I'd give you a pretty high score. Coming from another screen name, I would have thought it a genuine post.

You even invoked the controversial Rule of So for extra points.

 

[pharphis]

Maybe we can go back on topic.

I still feel the need to nitpick, sorry. What does "power is held by men" mean? Does it mean that men make up the majority of power-wielding positions or that as a whole men have more power in most/every sphere or something else? I mostly accept the former and mostly reject the latter.

In case the distinction is clear, one does not need to "be in as position of power" necessarily (I mean like government positions and stuff like that) to wield a great deal of power over a group of people under certain circumstances.

I was hoping for an answer to this. I guess I won't get one? If someone can't clarify these distinctions in their definition, this leads me to further believe that "men are politicians" is really just the bait-and-switch I thought it was due to almost every feminist interaction in the past: The definition with more baggage hiding underneath the surface is that men are privileged overall and that this top-down power is transferred to the average man, at the expense of women.

 

[The Norseman]

Why is that disgusting?

Is it reasonable to expect someone who takes a few years off to come back at the same level as someone who didn't take the time off?

I know I spent many years outside the professional workforce, and because of that choice, my career is not in the same place compared to others my age. I don't expect to be compensated at the same level as someone who has several years' more experience than me.

Sorry, pharphis is right and I don't want to drag this off topic. I would be glad to explain my thoughts in an appropriate thread.

 

[pharphis]

It's not wholly off-topic but it seems like people are just taking snipes at others and refusing to answer questions

 

[cullennz]

Not sure about other places but here you have

The Queen - Chick
Governer General - Chick
Prime Minister - Chick
Deputy PM - Dude
Chief Justice - Chick


So I think it ain't exactly a boys club when it comes to the top jobs

 

[Emily's Cat]

I find its garbage fan fiction in the same vein as those "here is a story about an atheist professor who gets theologically owned by an eigth grader".

If you set up a scenario and it plays out to your advantage in a hypothetical that isn't proving a point, that is really half assed writing a skit.

That's some lovely dismissal of a point by way of insinuation and mockery.

Point remains, however, that in nearly every case I've ever come across, dismissal of male privilege as a thing, dismissal of patriarchal societies as a thing, dismissal of the consideration that maybe we're not really equal tend to come from groups that are composed of men.

The short version is that it is men that believe there is no gender-related problems in the US... and they frequently tend to dismiss the perspective of women who argue that there are problems.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Barring rape it is 100% the choice of the woman. And even then in a lot of areas a woman can make the choice to end pregnancy.

I can want to procreate all I want without a willing partner I'm not getting far.

Do you know any women?

Having children is NOT 100% a woman's choice. Many many men want to have children and families too... but it is women who suffer for that choice. It is women whose careers are derailed because of kids. It is women who are expected to care for young children, take them to the doctor, stay home when they have colds. And in many cases, it is women who experience slow career growth because their employers expect them to have kids, and they get preemptively punished for the future children that they might or might not bear!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Such is the balance of family life-career balance. Women overwhelmingly want to stay home with the kids, even if only for a year or so (but usually way longer) and they demand that their husbands continue to work and make money. Have you heard of many mothers who are sad that their husbands choose to work instead of stay home, and that would rather work themselves instead? This is not at all common, and I don't think it's really fair to frame this as an issue concerning women and removing all of their agency in the decision (except for pregnancy and a very short term after birth).

Men don't really have a choice at all in the procreation realm, on any front, aside from abstinence or surgery. Women have all the choice in this realm and the man is legally liable for her choice whether she lies about birth control, or anything, really.

Holy cow, I don't even know where to begin with the sheer amount of wrong in this post.

Tell me - how do you tell the difference between:

"Women overwhelmingly WANT to stay home with babies" and "Women are overwhelmingly EXPECTED TO stay home with babies"?
"Women DEMAND that their husbands continue to work and make money" versus "Women MAKE A REASONED DECISION that their husband work and make money because MEN ARE PAID MORE THAN WOMEN"

I know LOTS of women who would much rather have worked and had their spouse stay home. I know LOTS of women who regret that social expectations and bias put them in a position where in order to have a family they had to give up THEIR careers.

And men absolutely have a choice in procreation - it's a called a condom, and they work quite well. And many an unfortunate woman has found herself in a tough position because the man LIED about using a condom.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The implied (and silly) antecedent to this is that white people by definition can have no insight whatsoever into whether or not racism exists. If this kind of nonsense was logically valid, then any group could make a case for their own victimhood and counterarguments would automagically be discredited. A pretty neat trick to try.

Actually, it's not that silly, and that's not what Johnny Karate was insinuating.

Yes, many men acknowledge that there is gender bias in the US. But when there is a group that denies that gender bias exists, that group is nearly 100% male.

Yes, many white people acknowledge that there is racial bias in the US. But when there is a group that denies that racial bias exists, that group is nearly 100% white.

Men don't see the problems women face. They don't experience them, and so those problems are effectively invisible to them. Thus, many men insist that the problems that men don't face are not faced by women.

White people don't see the problems black people face. They don't experience them, and so those problems are effectively invisible to them. Thus, many white people insist that the problems that white people don't face are not faced by black people.

In addition, there are quite a few women and racial minorities who disagree with your "everything is sexist and racist" fantasies.

That's hyperbole.

Not everything is sexist or racist. But both gender and racial bias (let alone actual bigotry) does exist and does have an impact.

Just because you've never experienced that bias directed at you doesn't mean that the bias is imaginary.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I notice a lot of people these days are starting to love that type of retrograde bigotry.

Wow. Just wow. Acknowledging that gender bias that disadvantages women exists and has a material impact on women is... bigotry. I don't even have words...

 

[Emily's Cat]

It seems almost too obvious to need mentioning, really. All other things being equal, taking five years off mid-career will incur costs. If Michael Jordan had taken five years off in his prime, he'd be less likely to come back at full strength.

That's great.

Try this on for size. Women get promoted more slowly throughout their careers, and experience lower raises... regardless of whether they have children or not.

Women are expected to have children and take time off... so employers don't consider them for promotion at the same rate men are considered, and they don't give them merit raises at the same magnitude or frequency as they given them to men. Women are preemptively disadvantaged because of an expectation that all women want to have babies - even those of us who don't want children, and have not taken time off.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Yes, many men acknowledge that there is gender bias in the US. But when there is a group that denies that gender bias exists, that group is nearly 100% male.

Yes, many white people acknowledge that there is racial bias in the US. But when there is a group that denies that racial bias exists, that group is nearly 100% white.

Nearly 100%, huh? What is the percentage and where are you getting your statistics? I don't believe you can support these assertions at all. That's a problem.

Men don't see the problems women face. They don't experience them, and so those problems are effectively invisible to them. Thus, many men insist that the problems that men don't face are not faced by women.

White people don't see the problems black people face. They don't experience them, and so those problems are effectively invisible to them. Thus, many white people insist that the problems that white people don't face are not faced by black people.

Complete nonsense, and this sort of reasoning could be used to justify anything. The truth is that the real discrimination is against white men. You've got nothing to say about it, though. Of course, it's completely impossible for you to have any insight whatsoever into what white men go through.