Do we live in a Patriarchy? What is that?

[sadhatter]

It's a choice... sure... but it's not exactly the woman's choice alone. Unless you somehow are under the impression that men don't want to procreate?

Barring rape it is 100% the choice of the woman. And even then in a lot of areas a woman can make the choice to end pregnancy.

I can want to procreate all I want without a willing partner I'm not getting far.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Barring rape it is 100% the choice of the woman. And even then in a lot of areas a woman can make the choice to end pregnancy.

I can want to procreate all I want without a willing partner I'm not getting far.

Yeah, because there is zero outside pressure on women to have kids..... they just choose to have them all by themselves.

 

[pharphis]

Barring rape it is 100% the choice of the woman. And even then in a lot of areas a woman can make the choice to end pregnancy.

I can want to procreate all I want without a willing partner I'm not getting far.

or abandon the child at a safe haven, or adoption, though those at least still involve risk and involvement carrying a child until birth

 

[rustypouch]

It's a choice... sure... but it's not exactly the woman's choice alone. Unless you somehow are under the impression that men don't want to procreate?

I'm not quite seeing your point. What does men's desire to procreate have to do with it?

I was under the impression that everything pregnancy related that happens after conception is the woman's choice, as it's her body and she has the final say.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm not quite seeing your point. What does men's desire to procreate have to do with it?

I was under the impression that everything pregnancy related that happens after conception is the woman's choice, as it's her body and she has the final say.

You're conflating "pregnancy" and "procreation".

And the point is this: In the majority of cases, the decision to procreate is made between a man and a woman together, and yet it is only the woman who faces the dilemma of how that decision will impact her career.

Women have to hear things like this:

Depends what you consider your career to be. If your day job is your career, then taking a few months off to cater to what is essentially a very elaborate and demanding hobby will absolutely have an effect on your career.

Of course being out of the work force for years will have an adverse effect on a career. In this case, it's a choice.

The men that get them pregnant and participated in the decision to procreate, not so much.

 

[Distracted1]

... Because it's ultimate the man that makes the decisions, I guess?

Because both customers need to be on board in order to close.

 

[sadhatter]

Yeah, because there is zero outside pressure on women to have kids..... they just choose to have them all by themselves.

There is pressure on me to like sports, have kids, be straight, among another few dozen things I don't do. Are you saying women are incapable of being as assertive as me? I'm on the low end of assertiveness seems like you assent giving women much credit.

 

[sadhatter]

You're conflating "pregnancy" and "procreation".

And the point is this: In the majority of cases, the decision to procreate is made between a man and a woman together, and yet it is only the woman who faces the dilemma of how that decision will impact her career.

Women have to hear things like this:





The men that get them pregnant and participated in the decision to procreate, not so much.

I notice you didn't do much say the points were wrong, just that women may hear uncomfortable truths.

That's not a point.

 

[johnny karate]

I notice you didn't do much say the points were wrong, just that women may hear uncomfortable truths.

That's not a point.

That women have to hear the “uncomfortable truth” that they are faced with the procreation vs career dilemma while men do not is exactly the point.

 

[pharphis]

Such is the balance of family life-career balance. Women overwhelmingly want to stay home with the kids, even if only for a year or so (but usually way longer) and they demand that their husbands continue to work and make money. Have you heard of many mothers who are sad that their husbands choose to work instead of stay home, and that would rather work themselves instead? This is not at all common, and I don't think it's really fair to frame this as an issue concerning women and removing all of their agency in the decision (except for pregnancy and a very short term after birth).

Men don't really have a choice at all in the procreation realm, on any front, aside from abstinence or surgery. Women have all the choice in this realm and the man is legally liable for her choice whether she lies about birth control, or anything, really.

 

[sadhatter]

That women have to hear the “uncomfortable truth” that they are faced with the procreation vs career dilemma while men do not is exactly the point.

They can choose not to procreate just like a man can and many do.

You seem to be removing women's agency to try and make your point.

 

[johnny karate]

Such is the balance of family life-career balance. Women overwhelmingly want to stay home with the kids, even if only for a year or so (but usually way longer) and they demand that their husbands continue to work and make money. Have you heard of many mothers who are sad that their husbands choose to work instead of stay home, and that would rather work themselves instead? This is not at all common, and I don't think it's really fair to frame this as an issue concerning women and removing all of their agency in the decision (except for pregnancy and a very short term after birth).

Men don't really have a choice at all in the procreation realm, on any front, aside from abstinence or surgery. Women have all the choice in this realm and the man is legally liable for her choice whether she lies about birth control, or anything, really.

I like how in your imaginary scenario it's the woman making all the demands on the poor, beleaguered man while she gets to do whatever she wants.

That certainly doesn't reveal any bias.

 

[johnny karate]

They can choose not to procreate just like a man can and many do.

You seem to be removing women's agency to try and make your point.

And you seem to be working really hard to miss the point.

 

[pharphis]

I like how in your imaginary scenario it's the woman making all the demands on the poor, beleaguered man while she gets to do whatever she wants.

That certainly doesn't reveal any bias.

I don't intend to suggest that it's the "poor man" in this scenario. After all, he does hold some responsibility, except perhaps in the cases where he was lied to about birth control.

My point is that this is a realm where women exhibit almost 100% of control, and so to frame it as a terrible scenario for women totally out of their control (hypoagency of women) it betrays a heavy bias towards women and our infantilization of them.

edit: I'm not saying men have it so bad, either. I'm saying that they have a more restricted role than women do.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't intend to suggest that it's the "poor man" in this scenario. After all, he does hold some responsibility, except perhaps in the cases where he was lied to about birth control.

My point is that this is a realm where women exhibit almost 100% of control, and so to frame it as a terrible scenario for women totally out of their control (hypoagency of women) it betrays a heavy bias towards women and our infantilization of them.

edit: I'm not saying men have it so bad, either. I'm saying that they have a more restricted role than women do.

Nothing you’re saying has anything to do with what I said. I suspect that’s because you prefer to steer the conversation towards the comfort of your talking points. Which is why my desire to further engage with you continues to dwindle.

 

[cullennz]

There is nothing to stop the dude being a stay at home dad

Obiously it isn't that common still, but it is happening more, especially if the mother is the main revenue provider

Or if this isn't an option, don't have a kid till it is

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I'd like to know this too... seeing as I apparently was absent that day.

It's a silly question. Just like asking when someone started having long hair. I don't know, but it's long now.

If you think it's not long, make your case. Similarly, if you or johnny karate think we're living in a patriarchy, then make your case. Define patriarchy and show how it is a good description for our current situation.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Exactly. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

I'm just glad us men could get together and decide that there's not a problem.

Next topic: Is racism still a thing? Our panel of white people doesn't seem to think so.

The implied (and silly) antecedent to this is that white people by definition can have no insight whatsoever into whether or not racism exists. If this kind of nonsense was logically valid, then any group could make a case for their own victimhood and counterarguments would automagically be discredited. A pretty neat trick to try.

In addition, there are quite a few women and racial minorities who disagree with your "everything is sexist and racist" fantasies.

 

[The Norseman]

Such is the balance of family life-career balance. Women overwhelmingly want to stay home with the kids, even if only for a year or so (but usually way longer) and they demand that their husbands continue to work and make money. Have you heard of many mothers who are sad that their husbands choose to work instead of stay home, and that would rather work themselves instead?

Only in America is this even an issue. I mean, every other first world and probably second world country in the world gives mandatory paid leave for both parents as well as job security upon returning to the workforce. "Focus on the Family" in the US is a pathetic lie.

It's disgusting that the attitudes expressed like the following are even a thing:

Depends what you consider your career to be. If your day job is your career, then taking a few months off to cater to what is essentially a very elaborate and demanding hobby will absolutely have an effect on your career. And that goes true for everything from child-bearing to adventure tourism to ice fishing to social justice activism to anything else that starts cutting into time you'd originally pledged to your employer.

Of course being out of the work force for years will have an adverse effect on a career. In this case, it's a choice.

 

[pharphis]

Only in America is this even an issue. I mean, every other first world and probably second world country in the world gives mandatory paid leave for both parents as well as job security upon returning to the workforce. "Focus on the Family" in the US is a pathetic lie.

It's disgusting that the attitudes expressed like the following are even a thing:

​

How long is the paid leave part? I bet it's not 5-15 years which is a typical number of years for a mother to stay home to raise the child full-time.

Obviously you can't just pretend you worked somewhere for 10 years upon returning tot he workforce... so in this sense, obviously your career will be impacted which is what I believe the poster you quoted was saying.