Do we live in a Patriarchy? What is that?

[pharphis]

"If civilization had been left in female hands we would still be living in grass huts." Camille Paglia

I don't know where it originally came from but I've Karen Straughan remark that if a patriarchy leads to women and children first, then a matriarchy leads to women and their luggage, first.

 

[johnny karate]

Let's presume that the norms allow for male politicians, CEOs, etc. to more easily access those positions of power than women. Just how bad is this and how does this translate to male privilege more generally? As some have said, it's not like the rich and powerful care about low or average status men. At all.
I don't see how this position that 0.1% of the population has affects even a sizable minority of men to their benefit or women to their detriment. In fact, I see the opposite effect (male disposability and gynocentrism).

This is why I think the more watered down notion of patriarchy is often just a bait-and-switch for the conspiracy theory position.

Do you deny that society has ever been patriarchal, or that it's just not patriarchal now?

And if it's the latter, when did it stop being patriarchal?

 

[pharphis]

Do you deny that society has ever been patriarchal, or that it's just not patriarchal now?

And if it's the latter, when did it stop being patriarchal?

I think society has always rewarded or punished gender roles for men and women in different ways. I think this has been framed historically as oppressive towards women (but not men or not as much) and I think this isn't quite accurate. I think over the years women have gained equal rights to men (actually even more rights than men, like bodily autonomy ie genital mutilation is illegal) and still have fewer obligations than men. Historically I think women have had fewer rights and fewer obligations, and this changed in the last century.

I accept that we live in a patriarchy if and only if that means that basically we have traditional gender roles, and that this leads to men in higher positions of power (and the lower 50% of men are ignored completely) and women valued generally more than men. I think this hurts both men and women, but I also don't think there's a solution to "patriarchy" because these gender roles are at least in part due to biological differences (in-group and out-group preferences ie gynocentrism, hypergamy, risk-averse behavior of women).

But here's the thing. I don't think the label patriarchy is useful specifically because it is 1) ambiguous what is meant by this and 2) there are much better terms with more explanatory power though don't come across as misandric like patriarchy does (men are to blame for patriarchy - we view women as being infants in regard to this all-encompassing social norm that have no part in enforcing it)

 

[johnny karate]

I think society has always rewarded or punished gender roles for men and women in different ways. I think this has been framed historically as oppressive towards women (but not men or not as much) and I think this isn't quite accurate. I think over the years women have gained equal rights to men (actually even more rights than men, like bodily autonomy ie genital mutilation is illegal) and still have fewer obligations than men. Historically I think women have had fewer rights and fewer obligations, and this changed in the last century.

I accept that we live in a patriarchy if and only if that means that basically we have traditional gender roles, and that this leads to men in higher positions of power (and the lower 50% of men are ignored completely) and women valued generally more than men. I think this hurts both men and women, but I also don't think there's a solution to "patriarchy" because these gender roles are at least in part due to biological differences (in-group and out-group preferences ie gynocentrism, hypergamy, risk-averse behavior of women).

But here's the thing. I don't think the label patriarchy is useful specifically because it is 1) ambiguous what is meant by this and 2) there are much better terms with more explanatory power though don't come across as misandric like patriarchy does (men are to blame for patriarchy - we view women as being infants in regard to this all-encompassing social norm that have no part in enforcing it)

I’m not sure there’s an answer to my questions in there.

Are you saying a patriarchal society never existed or just doesn’t exist now?

 

[pharphis]

It depends what you mean by patriarchy. I tried outlining my actual beliefs

 

[JJM 777]

I am wondering what this forum considers to be "the patriarchy" if you believe we live in one

Cannot speak on behalf of the "forum", but powerful positions being predominantly in the halds of males sounds like a fair definition. And that definition is true for the societies where we live.

what good or bad or neutral results come from this

An extremely complex question, which I will not attempt to answer. A potential negative result could be that men in power make decisions that favour men, making life more comfortable for men than women.

and if it is possible to change this to some better alternative.

Democratic voting is where both genders have the same voting powers. If voters start respecting women equally as they respect men, which is not exactly happening yet, that will change the power ratio between the genders, at least in politics, not directly in business life.

Do they have predictive power? What are the predictions that can be made to test these theories?

I haven't looked into the claim of Jews possessing powerful positions, but men possessing them is a statistical fact, which has the predictive power that we can forecast the gender ratio of powerful people in future, based on the ratio witnessed in the past. With a possibility for a gradual but not revolutionary change in this ratio over time.

 

[pharphis]

An extremely complex question, which I will not attempt to answer. A potential negative result could be that men in power make decisions that favour men, making life more comfortable for men than women.

I think that is usually the negative result that is presumed when people talk about living in a patriarchy but I don't think it is well supported by the evidence. I think gynocentrism means that women's interests are always of primary concern over men's, and that politicians know this (and think this way themselves) and that their genitals don't affect this at all.

Democratic voting is where both genders have the same voting powers. If voters start respecting women equally as they respect men, which is not exactly happening yet, that will change the power ratio between the genders, at least in politics, not directly in business life.

Right.. isn't this what we have? Everyone's vote is equal. Therefore, politically speaking everyone's ideals are represented, regardless of the genitals of those writing and voting on the bills. Last I heard women make up a majority of voters, too, suggesting that if we're going to collectivize people in these groups then women in fact have more power than men (I don't do this except as a counter point)

 

[johnny karate]

It depends what you mean by patriarchy. I tried outlining my actual beliefs

I’m comfortable with the dictionary definition.

And I’m not looking for an outline of your beliefs, but rather a straightforward answer to a simple question. A question, I might add, which is basically the same question you asked everyone else in your thread title.

 

[Information Analyst]

Depends what you consider your career to be. If your day job is your career, then taking a few months off to cater to what is essentially a very elaborate and demanding hobby will absolutely have an effect on your career. And that goes true for everything from child-bearing to adventure tourism to ice fishing to social justice activism to anything else that starts cutting into time you'd originally pledged to your employer.

Quite true. Back in 2011 I took voluntary redundancy, with a pay-out of 22 months salary (the first £30k was tax free), and planned to take a year out working on writing projects. I started looking for another job nine months later, and it took five months to find something, and even then it was a grade lower than I was on previously. No regrets, as I'd been able to pay off a mass of credit card debt, so things were a lot simpler after that.

Wind forwards, and I've just taken three months of Shared Parental Leave after my daughter was born and my wife went back to work. In the meantime my original workload has been partly superseded (which was being worked towards before I was off, mostly by me!), and now I'm working on other stuff. I've also arranged to work part-time, which my wife has also done so we can share the childcare. Neither of us is under any illusions that our previous career paths were going to be maintained as if nothing had happened. It's all about priorities.

 

[pharphis]

I’m comfortable with the dictionary definition.

And I’m not looking for an outline of your beliefs, but rather a straightforward answer to a simple question. A question, I might add, which is basically the same question you asked everyone else in your thread title.

Which dictionary definition? You're aware that there are many dictionaries and definitions for various terms, right?

I didn't ask a "simple question". I asked a question that required some explanation on the part of the person answering. Be precise or accept my answer. Does my answer not tell you whether I believe in your idea of patriarchy? If not, ask me in regards to that idea.

 

[johnny karate]

Which dictionary definition? You're aware that there are many dictionaries and definitions for various terms, right?

I didn't ask a "simple question". I asked a question that required some explanation on the part of the person answering. Be precise or accept my answer. Does my answer not tell you whether I believe in your idea of patriarchy? If not, ask me in regards to that idea.

Okay then, let's go with option 3:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/patriarchy

Are you denying that a patriarchal society - as defined in the third option in the above link - ever existed or only doesn't exist now?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Okay then, let's go with option 3:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/patriarchy

Are you denying that a patriarchal society - as defined in the third option in the above link - ever existed or only doesn't exist now?

Definition #3: "a social system in which power is held by men, through cultural norms and customs that favor men and withhold opportunity from women"

I'd say using that definition, the US was once a patriarchy, but no longer is.

 

[ahhell]

I have been in sales for 20 years, and it sounds like maybe I should try my hand at auto sales. Clearly they are overrun with lousy salespeople. My training and experience has always been to primarily address the woman (with exceptions, of course, based on the dynamic). Once the woman is sold- leave the couple alone for a bit and she will sell the man for you.

This matches what I have generally heard from sales people in the past, especially the really old school types.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

This matches what I have generally heard from sales people in the past, especially the really old school types.

I would think it would work to just say "hello" to both of them, and then wait to see which one takes the lead in starting the conversation.

 

[ahhell]

I would think it would work to just say "hello" to both of them, and then wait to see which one takes the lead in starting the conversation.

I could see an argument for why not. By social norms the man would tend to take the lead even if the women was ultimately going to make the decision, back in the day anyway. I suspect that's why, in my experience, its the old guys that tend to focus on selling to the women. Insert your own commentary on cis and hetro-normative stereotyping.

Definition #3: "a social system in which power is held by men, through cultural norms and customs that favor men and withhold opportunity from women"

I'd say using that definition, the US was once a patriarchy, but no longer is.

Its debatable but I think the US still is by that definition, though its changing.

 

[johnny karate]

Definition #3: "a social system in which power is held by men, through cultural norms and customs that favor men and withhold opportunity from women"

I'd say using that definition, the US was once a patriarchy, but no longer is.

When did it stop being one?

 

[Distracted1]

I would think it would work to just say "hello" to both of them, and then wait to see which one takes the lead in starting the conversation.

Notice that I pointed out in my post that a salesman trying to close a deal will need to customize his presentation based upon the perceived dynamic of the couple in question.

Often that dynamic is not immediately apparent, however, and the "husband" will take the leed- causing a novice salesman to direct too much attention to him under the mistaken notion that he will be the primary decision maker. That will keep your numbers low.

 

[William Parcher]

When did it stop being one?

When Liz Taylor married her sixth of seven husbands.

 

[pharphis]

Okay then, let's go with option 3:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/patriarchy

Are you denying that a patriarchal society - as defined in the third option in the above link - ever existed or only doesn't exist now?

Definition #3: "a social system in which power is held by men, through cultural norms and customs that favor men and withhold opportunity from women"

I'd say using that definition, the US was once a patriarchy, but no longer is.

I still feel the need to nitpick, sorry. What does "power is held by men" mean? Does it mean that men make up the majority of power-wielding positions or that as a whole men have more power in most/every sphere or something else? I mostly accept the former and mostly reject the latter.

In case the distinction is clear, one does not need to "be in as position of power" necessarily (I mean like government positions and stuff like that) to wield a great deal of power over a group of people under certain circumstances.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

When did it stop being one?

Hard to say.