Bitcoin - Part 2

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I met a man who firmly believes in bitcoin. He invested a few months ago. He says he has cashed out his initial investment and is now using only his profits, but I am not so sure.

He has been searching for get-rich-quick schemes for a while and has been taken in by the hype. He is in it for the long term despite the "intermediate bubbles" which he accepts is speculation.

He says that now is the time to buy some more. I hope not.

I see the currency might now be rising again. With big companies jumping in trying to make a profit (killing!) it may be adding to the hype.

There are so many schemes out there trying make the elite 1% (o.1%?) even richer. They have the smarts and no scruples, so I am afraid they are succeeding.
 
But while this is nice for (some) speculators who are making a killing, I still don't see how this makes Bitcoin a useful currency.
I personally would not like to use a currency where the value can be different by 20% based upon the time of day.
 
Craig B said:
Samson gave us a link to one here https://secure.stansberrychurchouse....D_BwE#AST74247
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Huh? How does an example of spam advertising prove anything? Didn't they have spam before bitcoin?

Craig B said:
Stuff like this always happens in crazy bubbles, 1637, 1720, 1845, 1929. Always the same.
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What? They always encouraged people to purchase their shares with credit cards?

Craig B said:
My point of course is, joking aside, that easy credit and purchases on credit, are much more widespread and accessible than at any of the previous dates I have cited.
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Well duh! But you have failed to show that credit card useage has changed significantly during the life of bitcoin.

You have failed to demonstrate that there will be anything different about the current bitcoin bubble. Like all those before you who said, "bitcoin's price will never be this high again" ....
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
But while this is nice for (some) speculators who are making a killing, I still don't see how this makes Bitcoin a useful currency.
I personally would not like to use a currency where the value can be different by 20% based upon the time of day.
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Nobody says that bitcoin has to be a "useful currency". If you haven't seen prices (in fiat currency) change by more than 20% in a day then you must ride a push bike.
 
psionl0 said:
Nobody says that bitcoin has to be a "useful currency". If you haven't seen prices (in fiat currency) change by more than 20% in a day then you must ride a push bike.
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Duh. Fiat. Push bike. So this is indeed an expression of libertarian ideology, as I supposed. That may be a difference from previous booms and crashes. The marks feel that they are defending freedom against the Federal Reserve by buying Coinmama's products.
 
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psionl0 said:
Nobody says that bitcoin has to be a "useful currency". If you haven't seen prices (in fiat currency) change by more than 20% in a day then you must ride a push bike.
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Isn't the whole reason bitcoin was invented to supplant fiat currency?
If not, what actual good (except as a bubble investment) is it then?

Granted, as a currency it was primarily used by a few die-hard libertans and otherwise a criminal element whitewashing other currencies. And I suspect at least the latter element has now stopped using it. After all, selling a kilo of coke and discovering the money you sold it with/for chances in worth by several percent during a day is not worth the effort.

And I think you misinterpreted me. I of course have seen certain (virtual goods) like stocks chance by 20% in a day a lot of times. But apart from a few economic wonder countries like Mozambique or Venezuela I have not seen actual currencies change by value as much as the bitcoin. Which again, to me, suggests that as a currency it is currently worthless.

As for the pushbike comment, I guess it was some jab at primitivism or something. Unfortunately I am Dutch and *not* riding a pushbike is considered a fact of incompetence and/or chronic laziness in my culture.
So yes, I DO ride a pushbike to work and back. Every work day for 35 minutes one way.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
Isn't the whole reason bitcoin was invented to supplant fiat currency?
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Nobody knows what "Satoshi Nakamoto" intended when they put bitcoin out there. A computer geek doesn't need a reason. From some of the early postings by this person, it appears that they put bitcoin out as an experiment and its take up was more rapid than expected (thus denying them the opportunity to modify bitcoin).

If some of the early adopters had "visions" of bitcoin supplanting other currencies then they were sorely mistaken. Computer geeks are not economists and the primitive coin generation algorithm ensured that bitcoin could not become a universal currency because of its inherent deflation. Had the coin generation mechanism been more appropriate then maybe things might be different but it was not to be.

As it stands, bitcoin is little more than a vehicle for speculation or transferring large sums of money at a rapid pace around the globe. Other currencies may develop that overcome bitcoin's limitation but non-deflationary currencies are not popular. See freicoin for example.

Lukraak_Sisser said:
As for the pushbike comment, ....
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I apologize for that remark. I wasn't having a dig at your preferred method of transport. I was just being too subtle. Where I live, petrol prices can change by more than 20% in a day and has a weekly price cycle (artificially generated by the oil companies).
 
psionl0 said:
Nobody knows what "Satoshi Nakamoto" intended when they put bitcoin out there. A computer geek doesn't need a reason. From some of the early postings by this person, it appears that they put bitcoin out as an experiment and its take up was more rapid than expected (thus denying them the opportunity to modify bitcoin).

If some of the early adopters had "visions" of bitcoin supplanting other currencies then they were sorely mistaken. Computer geeks are not economists and the primitive coin generation algorithm ensured that bitcoin could not become a universal currency because of its inherent deflation. Had the coin generation mechanism been more appropriate then maybe things might be different but it was not to be.

As it stands, bitcoin is little more than a vehicle for speculation or transferring large sums of money at a rapid pace around the globe. Other currencies may develop that overcome bitcoin's limitation but non-deflationary currencies are not popular. See freicoin for example.


I apologize for that remark. I wasn't having a dig at your preferred method of transport. I was just being too subtle. Where I live, petrol prices can change by more than 20% in a day and has a weekly price cycle (artificially generated by the oil companies).
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Eh? Oil is not a currency. And really? Petrol prices change 20% in a day?! When has this happened?
 
Roger Ramjets said:
That's the price of a commodity fluctuating, not the currency.

But Bitcoin is neither a currency nor a commodity - it's a Ponzi scheme.
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Absolutely, but it may be weird enough to screw people all ways, judging by the robust recovery to 16,000.
Can the brand beat off competitors, like Amazon in the selling space, and so on, despite there being no barriers to entry?

I do note it responds to my TA algorithm superbly, check my thread that was rubbished by my friend Psion.
 
psionl0 said:
If some of the early adopters had "visions" of bitcoin supplanting other currencies then they were sorely mistaken. Computer geeks are not economists and the primitive coin generation algorithm ensured that bitcoin could not become a universal currency because of its inherent deflation. Had the coin generation mechanism been more appropriate then maybe things might be different but it was not to be.
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Do you have any evidence of this at all? While gold and silver aren't technically deflationary, their supply is more or less limited, and they served as money for thousands of years. What is "appropriate" seems to be your own opinion and conjecture.

As it stands, bitcoin is little more than a vehicle for speculation or transferring large sums of money at a rapid pace around the globe. Other currencies may develop that overcome bitcoin's limitation but non-deflationary currencies are not popular. See freicoin for example.
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I wouldn't say that non-deflationary currencies are not popular, I would say that inflationary currencies that are perpetually losing value are not popular, which is for obvious reasons. The limitations facing bitcoin right now are not the fact that it is wildly appreciating and thus "deflationary", but rather the transaction times and costs, which are being addressed by the lightning network.

Fiat currencies enable perpetual and unlimited theft by the currency issuers, and it is the avoidance of this theft and graft that the bitcoin developers sought to enable. I won't hold my breath, but can you explain why we need to allow an elite few (or anyone, for that matter) to counterfeit our money and destroy our savings in order to have an "appropriate" currency? You've avoided this question for how many years now?
 
psionl0 said:
Make up your mind! Is bitcoin a currency or just a commodity?
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Bitcoin is a digital asset that was designed with the intention of one day being a currency. Whether or not something becomes a medium of exchange takes time, and acceptance, unless you're a government who can force people to do things at the barrel of a gun.
 
Tippit said:
The limitations facing bitcoin right now are not the fact that it is wildly appreciating and thus "deflationary", but rather the transaction times and costs, which are being addressed by the lightning network.

Fiat currencies enable perpetual and unlimited theft by the currency issuers, and it is the avoidance of this theft and graft that the bitcoin developers sought to enable. I won't hold my breath, but can you explain why we need to allow an elite few (or anyone, for that matter) to counterfeit our money and destroy our savings in order to have an "appropriate" currency? You've avoided this question for how many years now?
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Here's is a prediction. When the mess created by the Bitcoin bubble is in the course of being cleared up, it will be found, as it has been found in all the previous similar bubble periods cited in this thread, that seeking to avoid theft and graft has not been the main motive of the Bitcoin bubblers. That's what I bet we will find.

The Federal Reserve is counterfeiting the US currency? Just as presumably the Bank of England is counterfeiting Sterling. But never fear, the real stuff is being produced by nerds in the form of Bitcoin. Well, we'll see.
 
Craig B said:
Here's is a prediction. When the mess created by the Bitcoin bubble is in the course of being cleared up, it will be found, as it has been found in all the previous similar bubble periods cited in this thread, that seeking to avoid theft and graft has not been the main motive of the Bitcoin bubblers. That's what I bet we will find.
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Your predictions are worthless, and you haven't added anything original to this thread. You also fail to distinguish between the motives of the creator(s) of bitcoin, and the speculators who wish to front run it in the anticipation that it will have some future value. Nor are these motives necessarily exclusive or contradictory.

The Federal Reserve is counterfeiting the US currency? Just as presumably the Bank of England is counterfeiting Sterling. But never fear, the real stuff is being produced by nerds in the form of Bitcoin. Well, we'll see.
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Yes, they are counterfeiters. It doesn't matter much what you call them or it, because the moral and economic consequences are virtually the same. The definition of "sterling" is silver with a fineness of 0.925. Not only is there no silver in British money, but there is no pretense of needing any silver in British money, and so by that reasoning, the bankers are not just counterfeiters, but they have even far surpassed the dream of ancient alchemists of turning lead into gold.

We all know that bitcoin isn't "real", but it has made some people really wealthy, and maybe one day it or something like it will supplant the centralized looting which is the inevitable result of fiat currencies.
 
Tippit said:
... there is no pretense of needing any silver in British money, and so by that reasoning, the bankers are not just counterfeiters, but they have even far surpassed the dream of ancient alchemists
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Bad?
We all know that bitcoin isn't "real", but it has made some people really wealthy ...
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Good?
 
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