Proof of Immortality, VII

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Per usual, I don't understand your objection.

Put Befuddled Old Man away, Jabba. I'm not playing your game.

I will be glad to discuss the particulars of your latest fringe reset as soon as you address the flaws in your argument at the broad scope, so that we can be confident you are serious about a debate here (as opposed to quote-mining) and further confident that delving into detail will be ultimately productive. If your argument fails broadly and you are unwilling to redeem it, there is no need to wallow in detail. I have explained why this is a necessary first step and why it is important even given your most recent postings. You have not challenged those explanations, hence I assume you accept them as valid. You have shown a willingness to provide a comprehensive rebuttal elsewhere, so you can kindly supply one here.

Now quit stalling and get to it.
 
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For heaven's sake, Jabba. Have you not read any of the thousands of replies to you over the last five years?

There is no such thing as a potential self awareness.
There is no such thing as a potential self.
There is no such thing as a specific self awareness
There is no such thing as a specific self.

Consciousness is a process, not a countable thing. It is in a state of constant change; you are not the same Jabba that you were ten minutes ago, never mind ten weeks/ten months/ten years ago. Until you understand the self or consciousness as a process rather than a countable soul, you will not grasp the materialist (non-religious/reality) position.

And to be honest, that you have not addressed the many replies to you is really, really rude of you.
 
And to be honest, that you have not addressed the many replies to you is really, really rude of you.

That's how the distraction game is played. If you can't answer your critics, pretend you don't understand and demand that they keep explaining themselves until they get tired of explaining and go away.

I agree with you that Jabba has been exceptionally rude. For six months I have reminded Jabba almost daily that there is a comprehensive refutation of his proof that requires a broadly-drawn rebuttal in order to justify any subsequent discussion in detail. After all, you don't wallow in the merits of a suit if the judge rules you don't have standing to bring it or that she doesn't have jurisdiction to hear it. And for six months, after initially expressing interest, Jabba has assiduously ignored all those reminders. Now, after all those months of dereliction, he's trying to tell us that list of fatal flaws is old news and can be safely ignored. That would be like my tenants failing to pay rent for six months, and blowing off the demands for payment because some of them are dated six months ago. Longstanding dereliction is not an argument in the derelict's favor.
 
Jay,
- That doesn't refer to my "closing statement" -- it refers to my "opening statement." I'll stick with your responses to my closing statement, as I have needed to reword much of my opening statement.

Do you think it's normal that you still can't get your opening statement right after 5 years?
 
Per usual, I don't understand your objection. Bayesian statistics uses new info to re-evaluate the probability of an old hypothesis.

No one gives a crap Jabba. We can explain things to you, we can't understand them for especially when you are A) not trying to understand anything anyone is telling and B) have an admitted ulterior motive that is counter to you wanting to understand anyone.

It doesn't matter why you think your logical fallacies don't apply - it's all another fallacy called the Special Pleading Logical Fallacy. You haven't got a chance of keeping up if you can't recognize that fact.

You're WRONG.

And much like framing stuff in the context of "Materialism" actually does a disservice, we need to stop just listing all the logic fallacies Jabba is committing.

- One because because let's be honest it's "All of them." Listing Jabbian Logical Fallacies is like individually naming the grains of sand in the Sahara. Jabba's entire intellectual framework is broken on a level I've never seen. A Toynbee Tile is an argument that merges the Standard Model, Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics into a perfect unified theory and solves peace in the Middle East, the Energy Crisis, creates a perfect economic system, room temperature superconducting, and makes hotdogs and hotdog buns come in matching numbers compared to Jabba's Immortality Theorem.

- But more importantly because when we tell Jabba "You just made a logical fallacy" all Jabba hears is "I need to reword my argument."

He NEEDS to understand that he could fix every logical fallacy in his entire Dante's Journey of Wrongness... and he's still be wrong.

The problem isn't that Jabba is making logical fallacies. It's THAT HE'S WRONG.

2+2=343 is 100% wrong but there's no logical fallacy in the equation. 2+2=4 because the CIA put a chip in my brain is still correct even though is logically broken.

Right now Jabba's entire argument is a collapsed pile of pillars and I-beams and a foundation made of tapioca pudding. And way too many of our arguments are "This I-Beam has a lose screw, that pillar is made the wrong grade steel, and the tapioca is made with milk and not cream."

So Jabba is (pretending to) tightening screws and reforging steel and adding cream to a big pile of broken nonsense that would still be broken no matter how many tweaks he makes to it.

He's still winning in his head because we're playing his game too much. He still sees this as just a few adjustments away from a breakthrough.

We made a huge error when we let him and his little hanger on group of thread nannies bully us into moving from the intrinsic, load bearing faults with his entire idea to nitpicking the language and details. Jabba sees it as us chipping away at the candy coating, so therefore the chewy nougat center has to be good. The fact that we pointed out the nougat center was sawdust and nail polish 5 years ago notwithstanding.

Jabba. You are wrong. I will no longer engage your nonsense on any other level and invite everyone else to do the same. You haven't earned the right to have your minutia addressed. Your house has burned down and the debris has been swept away by flood waters. I'm done arguing about whether or not the crown model in your living room was miter cut or not.
 
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For heaven's sake, Jabba. Have you not read any of the thousands of replies to you over the last five years?

There is no such thing as a potential self awareness.
There is no such thing as a potential self.
There is no such thing as a specific self awareness
There is no such thing as a specific self.

Consciousness is a process, not a countable thing. It is in a state of constant change; you are not the same Jabba that you were ten minutes ago, never mind ten weeks/ten months/ten years ago. Until you understand the self or consciousness as a process rather than a countable soul, you will not grasp the materialist (non-religious/reality) position.

And to be honest, that you have not addressed the many replies to you is really, really rude of you.

Jabba will, of course ignore this. Fortunately any neutral jury will recognize that Jabba’s argument has been thoroughly destroyed.
 
- From my #625,
1. New information may affect the probability of an existing hypothesis (H)

- Per usual, I don't understand your objection. Bayesian statistics uses new info to re-evaluate the probability of an old hypothesis. Obviously, there is plenty of new info that has no bearing(spelling?) on a particular old hypothesis, but Bayesian statistics would not involve such new info in re-evaluating an old hypothesis.
Your existence is not new information. It's your starting point.
 
- Good. I'll go back to your objections in #827. Hopefully, I'll eventually come up with a final closing statement that I can refer back to the stat professors, and ask for their objections in writing -- and then, go from there.
:dl:
 
Hopefully, I'll eventually come up with a final closing statement that I can refer back to the stat professors, and ask for their objections in writing -- and then, go from there.

Putting your wagons in a different circle will not make the Indians go away.
 
Putting your wagons in a different circle will not make the Indians go away.

It's also very disingenuous of him to "ask for their objections in writing" when he already has a massive number of objections in writing, all of which he is ignoring.
 
- From #625, why I think that the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy doesn't apply.

Jabba, I *just* fixed this for you. It was just a page ago. Pay attention.

Jabba, let me fix this for you. Let's set aside complaints about the "pool of potential selves" existing or not, and just agree that as you've said you are talking about whether or not someone exists that would be really unlikely given all the other people that could have hypothetically existed instead.

I know this relies on the idea that there are WAY more hypothetical people that could have existed than ones that actually do exist. It would be nearly infinite, while our population is less than eight billion (extreme estimating because I can't be bothered).

So let's pick a target! You want to pick yourself, but that's getting into this whole big thing. So let's use a random number generator. Random.org is a good one, though they can't go higher than 1,000,000,000 which is a LONG way from "almost infinite". Still, that just skews the odds in your favor so let's do that. Let's say if I get a 1 it's a person who exists, and if I get anything else it's someone who doesn't. I'll run it 100 times.

Okay. Done. I could post the list here but it's big and ugly and I think people would understandably object so let's just cut to the chase: none of them exist. So then we plug them into your formula and it says...

1. The odds of this specific person existing are really really low under materialism.
2. And, in fact, they don't exist.
3. Therefore all is right with the world and consistent with materialism.

Like I said, I ran it a hundred times* (one click, but a hundred random numbers generated). This is what it looks like to pick a target fairly. So good news, reality is consistent with our expectations and we can be done here.



(*EDIT: I noticed this "again" button at the bottom and clicked it twenty times. So that's 2100 tests with odds WAY better than you were figuring.)
 
For heaven's sake, Jabba. Have you not read any of the thousands of replies to you over the last five years?

There is no such thing as a potential self awareness.
There is no such thing as a potential self.
There is no such thing as a specific self awareness
There is no such thing as a specific self.

Consciousness is a process, not a countable thing. It is in a state of constant change; you are not the same Jabba that you were ten minutes ago, never mind ten weeks/ten months/ten years ago. Until you understand the self or consciousness as a process rather than a countable soul, you will not grasp the materialist (non-religious/reality) position.

And to be honest, that you have not addressed the many replies to you is really, really rude of you.

One of many nice concise critiques
 
Great! godless dave has been fired and now Jay is the newly appointed LCP.

Knock it off Jabba. we have wasted five whole years explaining exactly why you are flat out wrong. You have spent the very same five years ignoring all of that, every last bit of it. Whatever bridges you may have ever had are long since burned, especially when you made it clear that you were going right ahead with your messed up map. I have looked at it and it is truly awful.
 
Great! godless dave has been fired and now Jay is the newly appointed LCP.

If he thinks I'm going to be the least critical, he's in for a surprise. He's chosen to quote my posts and add his own text, but he's not really paying attention to the discussion. His "responses" don't move the discussion forward; they just invite additional commentary based on his purported misunderstanding of what was already written. It's not unlike shifting into teacher mode to "analyze" the debate, thereby nominally participating in the thread while abrogating any responsibility to continue litigating the points he raised. In other words, he's fishing for more quotes he can mine without he himself having to put anything on the table.
 
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