Proof of Immortality, VII

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Jay,
- That doesn't refer to my "closing statement" -- it refers to my "opening statement." I'll stick with your responses to my closing statement, as I have needed to reword much of my opening statement.
-Above (#827) -- referring to my closing statement -- you claim that P(E|H)=1. In my response (#902), I say:
- That just isn't true.
- P(E|H) is the likelihood of my current existence -- given the non-religious hypothesis of only one finite life, at most, for each potential specific self-awareness.
- Likelihood is not an after-the-fact computation. It's a before the fact computation. At the Big Bang, or the beginning of time, what was the probability that I would be here right now?

- Can you tell me why my response is wrong?

- As you have agreed that self awareness is a process in the brain, you must also agree that the likelihood of your body's existence is exactly the same as your self awareness.

- From there, you must also understand that a process can not exist separately from the components that give rise to it (in this case, your brain). Which means, the materialist hypothesis is that your self awareness is a process that only happens when the brain is functioning. Brain stops functioning, self awareness ceases.

- Which means: in order for you to be immortal, it requires that selves NOT be processes, but rather exist as separate entities from your body which somehow attach themselves to your brain.

- As you are well aware by now: it is impossible for your self (in this scenario which involves two unlikely things, your body and your self) to be more likely than the materialist hypothesis (which is just your body).

-You will, no doubt, ignore this. But fortunately any neutral jury will have seen that you continue to ignore this fact, and will consider your case completely destroyed.
 
Who Wants to Live Forever?

Angel: Buffy, be careful with this gift. A lot of things that seem strong, good and powerful, they can be painful.
Buffy: Like say... immortality?
Angel: Exactly. I'm dying to get rid of that.
— Buffy the Vampire Slayer

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The worst fate possible might well be immortality. Sure, you might like the idea that you get to live forever and see what the world's like hundreds of years from now, but what's eternal life compared to the pain of life in general? From eventual boredom to eternal entrapment and torture to the emotional anguish of seeing your loved ones die, one by one, as you stay fixed in time.
 
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That doesn't refer to my "closing statement" -- it refers to my "opening statement."

I don't care what you call them or what arbitrary distinctions you want to draw. After five years of pointless manipulation, those distinctions are a joke. You have been avoiding that list of fatal flaws for six months, right after I asked you to respond to it in toto rather than by your usual depth-first hamster wheel from which there is no escape.

Because of all your extracurricular lies and shenanigans, you need to prove that you're serious. There is no point to engaging you on your nit-picking until we know you have a plan for fixing your argument at its most basic level.

Now quit stalling and provide the assurance in the manner requested. I'm done fooling around with you.
 

Eerrrr me.

Well not exactly but the psychological and social views on immortality as a concept are interesting.

No I don't want to live "forever" but.... long. Absolutely. And I don't mean biologically long but... like long actual timescale long? Highlander long?
Yeah.

Mortality is the greatest rationalization humankind has ever had to create. Morality is second only to maybe sex as the driving force of our entire individual and group level dynamics. Mankind has created a relationship with the concept of death that I don't know if I agree with 100%

Aging is just a degenerative disease, indeed THE degenerative disease. And it can be cured, probably sooner than we think. The first generation to have genetic degradation removed on a practical level from the equation might very well be alive now.

The main criticism are always over population and the stagnation of ideas as older generations stop dying off but I don't think either of those are anywhere near the insurmountable problems they are treated as.
 
Jay,
- That doesn't refer to my "closing statement" -- it refers to my "opening statement." I'll stick with your responses to my closing statement, as I have needed to reword much of my opening statement.
-Above (#827) -- referring to my closing statement -- you claim that P(E|H)=1. In my response (#902), I say:
- That just isn't true.
- P(E|H) is the likelihood of my current existence -- given the non-religious hypothesis of only one finite life, at most, for each potential specific self-awareness.
- Likelihood is not an after-the-fact computation. It's a before the fact computation. At the Big Bang, or the beginning of time, what was the probability that I would be here right now?

- Can you tell me why my response is wrong?

You haven't listened in 5 years. Why would anyone waste time explaining it again?
 
Describe your understanding of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

A pertinent question, considering Jabba's response simply denies making an error, and then makes it again in the very next sentence. A defensible conclusion to draw would be that Jabba has no functional understanding of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. More likely -- given his manipulative tactics here -- he knows what it is and knows that he's committing it, but he figures he can gaslight everyone else into thinking they don't know what it is. I'll wager it's part of the overall approach he takes where he assumes his "holistic" thinking is superior to everyone else.
 
- Can you tell me why my response is wrong?

Why are you doing this?

Why the pretense?

Why are you pretending large portions of the replies that have been written to you never existed?

Are the accusations true and you're just trying to quote-mine for a deceptively edited blog elsewhere?
 
A pertinent question, considering Jabba's response simply denies making an error, and then makes it again in the very next sentence. A defensible conclusion to draw would be that Jabba has no functional understanding of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy. More likely -- given his manipulative tactics here -- he knows what it is and knows that he's committing it, but he figures he can gaslight everyone else into thinking they don't know what it is. I'll wager it's part of the overall approach he takes where he assumes his "holistic" thinking is superior to everyone else.

I suspect he understands it but doesn't consider it a fallacy. Instead, it's the kind of holistic thinking we left-brainers are just too analytic to appreciate.
 
Jay,
- That doesn't refer to my "closing statement" -- it refers to my "opening statement." I'll stick with your responses to my closing statement, as I have needed to reword much of my opening statement.
-Above (#827) -- referring to my closing statement -- you claim that P(E|H)=1. In my response (#902), I say:
- That just isn't true.
- P(E|H) is the likelihood of my current existence -- given the non-religious hypothesis of only one finite life, at most, for each potential specific self-awareness.
- Likelihood is not an after-the-fact computation. It's a before the fact computation. At the Big Bang, or the beginning of time, what was the probability that I would be here right now?

- Can you tell me why my response is wrong?

I don't care what you call them or what arbitrary distinctions you want to draw. After five years of pointless manipulation, those distinctions are a joke. You have been avoiding that list of fatal flaws for six months, right after I asked you to respond to it in toto rather than by your usual depth-first hamster wheel from which there is no escape.

Because of all your extracurricular lies and shenanigans, you need to prove that you're serious. There is no point to engaging you on your nit-picking until we know you have a plan for fixing your argument at its most basic level.

Now quit stalling and provide the assurance in the manner requested. I'm done fooling around with you.
- Good. I'll go back to your objections in #827. Hopefully, I'll eventually come up with a final closing statement that I can refer back to the stat professors, and ask for their objections in writing -- and then, go from there.
- Back to #827.
You compute P(E|H) evaluating E subjectively after the fact. Effectively your proof constructs its evaluation only in a space where E has already been chosen, hence P(E|H) = 1. It also consults E to inform the method of evaluation. Further, "may affect" implies a mechanism of effect. I can state any hypothesis and I can name any piece of data, but that alone doesn't connect the data to the hypothesis. You must have an evidenced causal model. And here's where, in your proof, you dishonestly sneak the causal mechanism from your hypothesis into materialism and pretend they have to work the same way. You expressly ignore the actual causal mechanism for H -> E.
- Unfortunately, I don't understand the hi-lighted part above. If you, or anyone else can explain it to me, I'll see if I have an answer.
 
He not only can, he has. Many times. So have many other people. We have been explaining to you why it's wrong for five years.

Indeed, and "Nuh-uh!" is not a suitable rejoinder. Winning a poker hand is not an after-the-fact calculation. You must display one of the hands agreed upon, before the fact of the deal, as a winning hand. The probability itself of any hand arising is irrelevant. The significance in the context of the game is the predetermination of winning hands. Ditto the alleged significance of any specimen arising out of a complex system.

Fully five of the fatal flaws I've asked Jabba to address deal with the formulation he has most recently expressed.
 
- Good. I'll go back to your objections in #827. Hopefully, I'll eventually come up with a final closing statement that I can refer back to the stat professors, and ask for their objections in writing -- and then, go from there.
- Back to #827.
You compute P(E|H) evaluating E subjectively after the fact. Effectively your proof constructs its evaluation only in a space where E has already been chosen, hence P(E|H) = 1. It also consults E to inform the method of evaluation. Further, "may affect" implies a mechanism of effect. I can state any hypothesis and I can name any piece of data, but that alone doesn't connect the data to the hypothesis. You must have an evidenced causal model. And here's where, in your proof, you dishonestly sneak the causal mechanism from your hypothesis into materialism and pretend they have to work the same way. You expressly ignore the actual causal mechanism for H -> E.
- Unfortunately, I don't understand the hi-lighted part above. If you, or anyone else can explain it to me, I'll see if I have an answer.

Why do you keep wanking on about that equation? Without a population of souls to draw from, the odds of a particular soul being "assigned" to a body is a meaningless imaginary value that cannot actually be calculated.

I would call your equation garbage, but a lot of garbage can be recycled or composted. Your equation lacks even that utility.

What is your REAL motive for your posts here?

Are you deliberately plagiarizing The Physics of Immortality: Modern Cosmology, God and the Resurrection of the Dead by Frank J. Tipler?
 
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It also consults E to inform the method of evaluation.[...]

- Unfortunately, I don't understand the hi-lighted part above. If you, or anyone else can explain it to me, I'll see if I have an answer.

It means that your proof commits the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, as you've been repeatedly told.

Dave
 
- Good. I'll go back to your objections in #827.

No, that was not the assignment. Just because you have purposely ignored this list for six months does not make it moot. Fully five of the fatal flaws in that list relate to what you've posted in the past 72 hours, and all of them relate to your most recent summary. You know that list exists. You have expressly refused to address it. In any normal debate, that would be as good as a concession. It only fails in this case to have the appropriate effect because of your rude obstinacy, which I am endeavoring to correct.

I have already made my case that you are not arguing here in good faith. You have not seen fit to address or rebut that case in any way, so it stands unchallenged -- you are not to be given the benefit of the doubt. You have assured us that the rest of your argument falls into place if but one or two items can be overcome. I have shown evidence that this is not so, and your assurance over and above that evidence is therefore not to be trusted. It is therefore incumbent upon you to show that you have a plan to fix your entire argument.

Further, it is abundantly evident that you insist on a depth-first strategy in order to bog down the discussion in irrelevant detail. Several of your critics here have expressed a desire not to repeat the same unproductive exercise ad nauseam. You yourself have admitted it is unproductive, only in your case you have tried to blame its inefficacy on your critics. Either way, it is clear that repeating the depth-first approach will not resolve the debate. Therefore we are trying a breadth-first approach to see if it will succeed in making any progress where your strategy has (by your own admission) failed.

You claim to hold a PhD. I doubt that claim very much, but if we take it as read that you do have such a degree, then it cannot have been conferred upon you except that you passed an oral defense of your dissertation. Having endured, officiated, and participated in several such defenses, I can bring up a salient point. A defense consists of the candidate being asked questions by the faculty and students of the relevant college. A faculty member -- typically the candidate's committee chair -- officiates. Since the defense is a time-bounded activity, the principal role of the officiator is to cut off lines of questioning that bore too deeply for too long at the expense of a more comprehensive breadth of questioning from all comers. This is a time-honored format of academic debate. You have presented your thesis and are now engaged in a defense of it. It seems untoward that you are abandoning the standard method of academic defense and instead embracing a technique aimed more at casting off your critics by attrition. Did that work for you in college?

Now I told you I was finished fooling around with you. You have begged far too much from the patience of honest people whose contributions you have co-opted for your own selfish purposes. For each of the fatal flaws in the post linked above, please provide one or two sentences describing how your final argument, if any, will overcome it. This should take you no more than an hour and should comprise a single post. Then when we are convinced you are serious and have a serious argument, we can proceed with the detailed presentation of your claim according to the individual justifications you will have laid out.

I expect you will not comply, and that you will invent some excuse why you are justified in your non-compliance. None is valid. You have been fairly challenged across the entire landscape of your claim, and you have declined to answer after six months of almost daily reminders. That constitutes, effectively, a concession of your claim and any of your critics would be justified in considering it conceded.
 
[...]
- Unfortunately, I don't understand the hi-lighted part above. If you, or anyone else can explain it to me, I'll see if I have an answer.

What's the point? You have ignored the majority of explanations over and over for years. There's no point in trying to reach you.

I'm just here to see how it ends.
 
You claim to hold a PhD. I doubt that claim very much, but if we take it as read that you do have such a degree, then it cannot have been conferred upon you except that you passed an oral defense of your dissertation. Having endured, officiated, and participated in several such defenses, I can bring up a salient point. A defense consists of the candidate being asked questions by the faculty and students of the relevant college. A faculty member -- typically the candidate's committee chair -- officiates. Since the defense is a time-bounded activity, the principal role of the officiator is to cut off lines of questioning that bore too deeply for too long at the expense of a more comprehensive breadth of questioning from all comers. This is a time-honored format of academic debate. You have presented your thesis and are now engaged in a defense of it. It seems untoward that you are abandoning the standard method of academic defense and instead embracing a technique aimed more at casting off your critics by attrition. Did that work for you in college?

Perhaps he got his degree from the same dump that gave Kent Hovind his.

Since this is all about defeating death, this classier alternative may have been how he got his degree.
 
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