You know what I have done in the past when I didn't like my treatment on a job. I quit and found another one. Eventually, I started my own business.
Why do liberals need someone to hold their hand and do everything for them?
You know what I have done in the past when I didn't like my treatment on a job. I quit and found another one. Eventually, I started my own business.
Why do liberals need someone to hold their hand and do everything for them?
So we say they're odd, and they say we're odd. That's like yelling "Are not!" and "Are too!" back and forth at each other. What's your point?
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2003
- Messages
- 20,501
Obviously someone who has handled their finances so poorly that a short period of unemployment would destroy them will have less freedom than others, but that's always true no matter what the system.
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Well, mister conservative, not everybody can afford to quit, and not everybody can be their own boss.
If all you wanna do is disparage so called "liberals", I suggest you find some other forum: disparaging liberals doesn't contribute much, and there's already quite enough partisan bickering around here.
By the way, I dislike being called a "liberal". Not only because I'm not a US citizen, but also because if I happened to be one, I wouldn't be a liberal. I have no use for schmiberalism. The only tag political tag I don't completely dislike is "social-democrat".
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So I'm a socialist because I support extended maternity leave? Ok. Can't someone on the right be in favour of extended maternity leave? I mean, many conservatives like to talk about "family values". I find it curious that the same crowd who often talks about "family values" tend to support economic policies that play havoc with actually having a family. Why must women be penalised if they have children? Right now, women who want careers are often being forced to choose between a promotion and a kid.
And all the while, most western countries can't reach population replacement levels. Well, no wonder!
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No, anyone can quit their job and get another. People do it all the time.
Disparaging liberals? Disparaging people of faith goes on around here a lot too. Should people discontinue that?
Social-democrat?!?!? LOL!! How come liberals try to hide what they are?
Anyway, I pick on liberals because, well....they are liberal.
(Orwell)
So I'm a socialist because I support extended maternity leave?
(New Ager)
6 months maternity leave. Yep.
(Orwell)
Ok. Can't someone on the right be in favour of extended maternity leave?
(New Ager)
Not if they are smart.
(Orwell)
I mean, many conservatives like to talk about "family values". I find it curious that the same crowd who often talks about "family values" tend to support economic policies that play havoc with actually having a family.
(New Ager)
There are no such policies.
And the gov't forcing a business to give 6 months free pay to someone is welfare. Which is not family values, but socialism.
(Orwell)
Why must women be penalised if they have children?
(New Ager)
They aren't.
(Orwell)
Right now, women who want careers are often being forced to choose between a promotion and a kid.
(New Ager)
Imagine that. An adult having to make a choice. Does the gov't do all the choosing for all you European liberals? Rather sad.
(Orwell)
And all the while, most western countries can't reach population replacement levels. Well, no wonder.
(New Ager)
We have population problems?!??! That's news to me.
Which western countries are you talking about?
So I'm a socialist because I support extended maternity leave?
(New Ager)
6 months maternity leave. Yep.
(Orwell)
Ok. Can't someone on the right be in favour of extended maternity leave?
(New Ager)
Not if they are smart.
(Orwell)
I mean, many conservatives like to talk about "family values". I find it curious that the same crowd who often talks about "family values" tend to support economic policies that play havoc with actually having a family.
(New Ager)
There are no such policies.
And the gov't forcing a business to give 6 months free pay to someone is welfare. Which is not family values, but socialism.
(Orwell)
Why must women be penalised if they have children?
(New Ager)
They aren't.
(Orwell)
Right now, women who want careers are often being forced to choose between a promotion and a kid.
(New Ager)
Imagine that. An adult having to make a choice. Does the gov't do all the choosing for all you European liberals? Rather sad.
(Orwell)
And all the while, most western countries can't reach population replacement levels. Well, no wonder.
(New Ager)
We have population problems?!??! That's news to me.
Which western countries are you talking about?
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No, anyone can quit their job and get another. People do it all the time.
Disparaging liberals? Disparaging people of faith goes on around here a lot too. Should people discontinue that?
Social-democrat?!?!? LOL!! How come liberals try to hide what they are?
Anyway, I pick on liberals because, well....they are liberal.
Can't deal with real life without labelling things with familiar tags, eh?
Woa! More rhetoric!
Yawn... Well, since you just wanna bicker, I'll just ignore you.
If someone else wants to disagree with me without any name calling and "because I say so" arguments, please feel free to do it. I enjoy a good discussion.
bozothedeathmachine
Muse
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
- Messages
- 649
Crap, I posted this once, but it went away.
Here's a summary.
New Ager: Orwell's right on the population thing. I'm only familiar with Germany and Czech Republic, but they are having "populations sustainment" issues. I've even seen an advertisement in Czech prompting the population to have more babies. My wife is European and has lived in both mentioned countries. Speaking with her and friends the reason people are not procreating is because it's too expensive to have children in those social-welfare states. She often jokes that that's the reason Germans have dogs, they are cheaper than kids. So Orwells agruement doesn't really hold water. What's more, the country that endorses such decried maternity leave practices, the U.S., doesn't seem to be having that population decrease issue.
We have high immigration; for example, one fifth of the citizens of Mexico live in the US.
There was an interesting thing about Mexico and jobs on NPR some time ago. Apparently, many Mexicans don't get birth certificates if they're born in rural areas where there isn't a resident doctor, and good employment in Mexico requires them. So for many Mexicans, they have to leave the country just to have a chance at a decent job.
But about conservatives and maternity leave- conservative "family values" generally refers to the traditional nuclear family, which doesn't include a working mother in its ideal. So naturally conservatives won't favor healthy maternity policies, because according to their ideal, the mother should be at home full time anyway.
(Orwell)
Right now, women who want careers are often being forced to choose between a promotion and a kid.
--------------------
Imagine an adult having to make a decision like that:
1) take time off work to pursue other (non-work) interests/goals
2) concentrate on their career
Oh, the horror! We certainly can't have people taking responsibility for their own lifestyle choices can we...
And those evil bosses who want to employ people on the basis that they will be productive... what kind of logic is that!?
Right now, women who want careers are often being forced to choose between a promotion and a kid.
--------------------
Imagine an adult having to make a decision like that:
1) take time off work to pursue other (non-work) interests/goals
2) concentrate on their career
Oh, the horror! We certainly can't have people taking responsibility for their own lifestyle choices can we...
And those evil bosses who want to employ people on the basis that they will be productive... what kind of logic is that!?
Yes, I know that. But these days an average middle class family can't afford to lose the proportion of its income brought in by women. I've never heard anyone from the "family values" crowd mentioning income supplements for stay at home moms. Their idea is women at home, men bring bacon. Well, these days, most men can't bring enough bacon to pay for all.
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They shouldn't. I want a long unpaid paternity leave too, so that I can't take care of my wife and my kid. In Canada, employees who meet eligibility requirements are entitled to unpaid parental leave ranging from 12 to 52 weeks. Some collective agreements provide partial pay during parental leave, but that's between the employer and his workers.
Is this unreasonable? I don't think so.
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Nobody called anyone evil. Please restrain from the manichean rhetoric. I don't see why people should have to choose between satisfying a basic biological need and having a career. In other words, I don't think having children is a "lifestyle choice". Many countries have legislation that allow for extended parental leave.
If an employer agrees, without duress, then I have no problem, providing of course that seniority does not advance and that there is no guarentee that the person will come back to thier old job.
I also think, for the sake of equlity that this should be termed a "lifestyle sabbatical" and that if it is offered to parents it must be offered to anyone else that feels a personal need to expand their horizens.
Is this unreasonable? I think not!
bozothedeathmachine
Muse
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
- Messages
- 649
Orwell said:
I'm interested in the "biological needs" argument. Granted, there are some people who simply cannot get by (i.e. survive) on a single income, but that's not many. The other people who "need" the second income are so they can live extremely comfortably, or some might argue, opulantly. I've heard some colleagues make the 2 income argument. They have 2 cars, a large house, satellite (or cable), broadband, play golf regularly, and go out to eat lunch almost daily.
So, does the need to own a Lexus trump the need to breed?
I realize I might be a bit extreme, but just to prove a point.
ETA: I consider myself to be in the "average middle class" bracket, same for the people I work with.
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