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Odd, these French

The right to hire and the right to fire are examples of one of our most fundamental rights, the right to free association. If the government declares that you can't fire someone, they're essentially forcing you to enter into a business relationship with someone you don't want to. The thought of a government with that kind of power makes me very nervous.

I have to agree.

I don't think people realize how much employee turnover hurts a company. It costs a lot of money to train people. Good management isn't going to fire people without reason - if they do, they're simply creating problems.

I have no problem with companies being able to fire workers for whatever reason they see fit. If it's a crappy reason, then it's ultimately detrimental to the company, and they're the ones that are going to suffer.
 
At will employment means just that, on the part of the employer and the employee.

Is it "at will" for the employee when he knows that walking out means losing his house and starving his family? Coercion and duress come in more than one form. Been there, done that.

There's a reason unions got started, in the first place. If I read you correctly, though, you don't believe that employers with unlimited power would ever abuse their employees. You believe the Muckrakers were just that, and that they never had a bona fide cause. The workhouses, coal mines and slaughter pens never existed; that chapter in our history never happened.
 
Seriously? I have no objection if it's a voluntary contract which has evolved to a de-facto standard, but I'm surprised by that. So if a currency trader jumps from bank A to bank B he's required to give a month's notice? I thank you for the information and I'd like to learn more.

yup. friend of mine who is an accountant had to fork over a large amount of cash to his current employer so he could take up employment elsewhere without the required notice period..... think of it as breach of contract.
 
Is it "at will" for the employee when he knows that walking out means losing his house and starving his family? Coercion and duress come in more than one form. Been there, done that.

Been there done that. I started a company with a house mortgage and if I fired someone it was deserved. Even if it wasn't, it was my nickel. A propriator needs an absolutely free hand. Who is really in a position to second guess him?

There's a reason unions got started, in the first place. If I read you correctly, though, you don't believe that employers with unlimited power would ever abuse their employees. You believe the Muckrakers were just that, and that they never had a bona fide cause. The workhouses, coal mines and slaughter pens never existed; that chapter in our history never happened.

I couldn't care less what "happened", why on earth should I? Do these victims want reparations or an apology or something?
 
I have to agree.

I don't think people realize how much employee turnover hurts a company. .

Not always. If you are supposed to be cutting edge new blood is a good thing. Also, if people at age 23-30 hang around too long it makes one wonder.
 
Is it "at will" for the employee when he knows that walking out means losing his house and starving his family? Coercion and duress come in more than one form. Been there, done that.

There's a reason unions got started, in the first place. If I read you correctly, though, you don't believe that employers with unlimited power would ever abuse their employees. You believe the Muckrakers were just that, and that they never had a bona fide cause. The workhouses, coal mines and slaughter pens never existed; that chapter in our history never happened.
Unions in the past served as a check on the robber barons. However, they were necessary mainly because the robber barons had government on their side (or, more accurately, in their pocket); and could abuse their workers with impugnity. Unions were formed to oppose them, and force changes resulting in better worker safety and and equitable treatment.

Modern unions no longer serve that function for the most part. They're generally not all that concerned with safety and equitability; but in lining the pockets of their own officials. They have a stranglehold on several major industries, and in many states, it's pretty much impossible to get a job in any of those industries without belonging to a union and paying a massive amount in dues every year, with little real benefit from it.

They are, in large part, the reason that American manufacturning hasn't been able to keep up with a lot of the rest of the word in flexibility and cost control. It's also reduced upward mobility and incentive to excel in industries where they have a lock, since promotion and recognition is far more often based on seniority (and good-ol'-boy politics) than it is on ability and effort. In some industries, it's nearly impossible to get rid of low-performing or problematic workers because of the miles of red tape created by the unions. (This is particularly bad in education, one of the worst and most poorly run unions in the US). Likewise, individuals have little, if any, say in how their job is run; and are unable to directly influence it.

As for "starving", "coercion" and "duress"... try finding ways to feed your family or going to work when your union decides that they're going on strike because the union leaders want to squeeze their employers for an extra few benefits for their old-guard (usually at the expense of their lower-ranked members); and you're not allowed to work without finding a new job in an entirely different industry.

They're a good idea, but their current form has long since outlived it's usefulness.
 
Mmm, have any of you ever had your girlfriend (or wife) fired two days after she announced to her co-workers that she was pregnant? I guess the economy was "flexing", eh?

I think it should be pointed out that it's usually those who need unions the most that have the most trouble having one... Wallmart employees come to mind...

By the way, from a French perspective, US practices are the ones that are "odd".
 
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By the way, from a French perspective, US practices are the ones that are "odd".

And, that means...what? Here, let me try...

From a US perspective, Canadian practices are the ones that are "odd".

Doesn't really say much, does it?
 
Mmm, have any of you ever had your girlfriend (or wife) fired two days after she announced to her co-workers that she was pregnant? I guess the economy was "flexing", eh?

Have any of you had an employee who goes on matertity leave swearing that they will be back in 6 weeks and then quitting on the day they are due back? 3 times for me. I stopped hiring newlyweds.


By the way, from a French perspective, US practices are the ones that are "odd".

I think that their situation is not sustainable. We will see.
 
Speaking of duress, losing your house, etc.: My Dad when a young man in California (closed shop those days in this field) tried to get a job working carpentry:

I'd like a job.

"Can't get a job unless you're in the union."

Can I join the union?

"Not without a job."

QED -- that's how they kept out anyone who didn't have an "in" with the Union. The lesson (for me) is not that either businesses or unions are bad, per se -- but that both can be.

To say -- as some above have suggested -- that unions may have outgrown their usefulness, however, is not to say that businesses either do have or should have "unlimited power," nor that unions were unnecessary at the time they were created.
 
And, that means...what? Here, let me try...

From a US perspective, Canadian practices are the ones that are "odd".

Doesn't really say much, does it?

It says more than you think. Saying that some other country's work practices are "odd" is like saying that your practices are "normal" and, by extension, reasonable, and theirs are not.
 
Have any of you had an employee who goes on matertity leave swearing that they will be back in 6 weeks and then quitting on the day they are due back? 3 times for me. I stopped hiring newlyweds.

Six weeks maternity leave! That's all! No wonder they quit!

By law, in Canada, female employees are entitled to a standard 24 weeks unpaid, job-protected maternity leave. And I don't think that's enough!

Well, see, I think that six weeks maternity leave is "odd".
 
Originally posted by Orwell
By law, in Canada, female employees are entitled to a standard 24 weeks unpaid, job-protected maternity leave. And I don't think that's enough!
I was at a company that hired a woman to be the system architect on a major project. She was the most important technical person out of over 50 engineers. She was pregnant when hired and her 6 weeks of maternity leave really messed up the project. If it had been 24 weeks, we would have to hire someone else to replace.

With 24 weeks of maternity leave, no sane, small company would ever hire a young woman to be in an important role. As Ed says, hiring a newlywed almost guarantees maternity leave within a few years.

I had a woman working for me who was an excellent engineer. While she was on maternity leave, I got her by far the best raise in my department. She quit anyway. I left the company and hired her at my new company. She got pregnant again but is still working there. The reality is that when I leave this company I would still recruit her again even if I thought she would get pregnant a third time. But if she were only good, I would probably have second thoughts. If she were to get 24 weeks maternity leave, I would not have hired her the second time. There is no way we could afford to lose 1 out of three software engineers for half a year.

CBL
 
Have any of you had an employee who goes on matertity leave swearing that they will be back in 6 weeks and then quitting on the day they are due back? 3 times for me. I stopped hiring newlyweds.

My entiments exactly. I wouldn't hire anyone that I thought was going to go off and get pregnant. This is also one of the reasons that many women get passed over for promotions.

Here they get a year mat leave, and they have to tell you that they're coming abck, or they don't get the leave. So you have to hire someone else in the meantime, on a contract basis, for just over a year (to account for training and such).

The person on mat leave is supposed to give you two weeks notice, as to whether they're coming back or not, but they're not penalized if they don't. So by the time the woman has decided if she's coming back or not, the person that you paid to train to take over, has already found a new job (because if they're smart, they aren't going to wait to see if the job might become permanent). So now you have to hire (and train!) yet another person, and who knows if they'll work out, or what they're learning curve is.

Not always. If you are supposed to be cutting edge new blood is a good thing. Also, if people at age 23-30 hang around too long it makes one wonder.


True, but for the majority of companies, you prefer to retain your employees (well, the good ones, anyway).
Orwell said:
Six weeks maternity leave! That's all! No wonder they quit!

By law, in Canada, female employees are entitled to a standard 24 weeks unpaid, job-protected maternity leave. And I don't think that's enough!

Well, see, I think that six weeks maternity leave is "odd".
Sometimes you reach special agreements with employees - we had one female that was really key who ended up getting pregnant. We offered her a pay raise to cut her mat leave to under 6 months (as opposed to taking the full year). The pay raise went into effect before she left on mat leave, so that she would be getting the immediate benefit. She ended up staying on mat leave for the full year (being as you legally can't 'make' someone come off mat leave), and then wondered why she was never offered another promotion.

French laws about firing people are such a joke.
 
Six weeks maternity leave! That's all! No wonder they quit!

By law, in Canada, female employees are entitled to a standard 24 weeks unpaid, job-protected maternity leave. And I don't think that's enough!

Well, see, I think that six weeks maternity leave is "odd".

mighta been 12, don't remember but it was paid.

only an idiot would put a person in a responsible position if they could, on their own responsibility, vanish for 24 weeks.
 
mighta been 12, don't remember but it was paid.

only an idiot would put a person in a responsible position if they could, on their own responsibility, vanish for 24 weeks.

Herein lies the great problem with female equality in the workplace....
 
Herein lies the great problem with female equality in the workplace....

I see no difference between a pregnant woman and a person that engages in any other riskey behavior that could render them hors de combat. It is personal responsibility pure and simple. If one chooses to be unreliable for whatever reason, I hope that the personal benefit is a subjectively good one because I really don't give a damn.
 
Luchog,

You were right on with your post.

Unions have also attracted organized crime which control many of them.

And unions have created an awful education system in America that is broke and won't be fixed until they get rid of the socialistic practices in it.
 
Six weeks maternity leave! That's all! No wonder they quit!

By law, in Canada, female employees are entitled to a standard 24 weeks unpaid, job-protected maternity leave. And I don't think that's enough!

Well, see, I think that six weeks maternity leave is "odd".

Most socialists do.

I guess socialism is alive and well in Canada.

Most in America don't like socialism and do like capitalism. It's why we are the greatest country in the world. It's "odd" that so many in the world don't seem to get that.
 

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