• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Trans Women are not Women

Status
Not open for further replies.
Darat said:
At the top professional and amatuer levels wouldn't they have to undergo blood tests for drug use? What about having a rule that any "sex" hormone can't be used?
Click to expand...

Not sure how that's going to help. Wouldn't that just make the problem worse?
 
I am a man of the garden variety. My body and its hormones happen to be balanced such that I am not very muscular. As a kid or teenager, I'd train track&field as hard as the other guys, and end up less strong, and consequently I was, and am, mediocre in any sport I try that needs muscle.

I could undergo hormone therapy, surgery and what not to become the testosterone-rich super-male that I honest to FSM I feel is my true nature and destination. Should I be allowed to compete in sports with my brand-new hulkiness? Obviously not.

I kinda feel similar about people treating their bodies in similar fashion to change sex and/or gender: the idea in sports is to compete with the body birth gave you, nurtured only with disciplined diet and hard work. Any manipulation is suspect, even though that's perfectly fine by me outside sports.
 
The Atheist said:
To those people, it's the gender equivalent of the n-word for coloured people.
Click to expand...

Intersex is a more general term, but yes I understand that "hermaphrodite" is considered offensive, even by those for whom it is a more specific biological description.
 
Oystein said:
I could undergo hormone therapy, surgery and what not to become the testosterone-rich super-male that I honest to FSM I feel is my true nature and destination. Should I be allowed to compete in sports with my brand-new hulkiness? Obviously not.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's so obvious. I actually think that should be allowed.
 
Roboramma said:
Not sure how that's going to help. Wouldn't that just make the problem worse?
Click to expand...

Why? It would mean that a transwoman who is taking hormone treatment wouldnt be able to compete. Which is the case for many people who have to take drugs for their medical condition.
 
How about setting limits explicitly per relevant physical observable as determined by the specifics of the sport? For example in boxing you have weight classes, you step on the scale and whatever it reads determines the weight class you're in. And it doesn't matter how you got that weight, or what sex or gender or personality you have.
 
Last edited:
cullennz said:
Being human doesn't change the fact it's a blokes body
Click to expand...

Darat said:
At the top professional and amatuer levels wouldn't they have to undergo blood tests for drug use? What about having a rule that any "sex" hormone can't be used?
Click to expand...

Oystein said:
I could undergo hormone therapy, surgery and what not to become the testosterone-rich super-male that I honest to FSM I feel is my true nature and destination. Should I be allowed to compete in sports with my brand-new hulkiness? Obviously not.

I kinda feel similar about people treating their bodies in similar fashion to change sex and/or gender: the idea in sports is to compete with the body birth gave you, nurtured only with disciplined diet and hard work. Any manipulation is suspect, even though that's perfectly fine by me outside sports.
Click to expand...

The thing is, though, that Transwomen are taking drugs that significantly and massively REDUCE their ability to compete. The male-to-female hormone therapy is the opposite of performance enhancement, it lowers muscle mass and bone mass, although that takes time to occur.

There is already precedence for measuring testosterone levels in athletes, with some suggestion that it only be measured for transgender or intersex athletes.

Testes are part of the endocrine system, they don't need to be removed to remove the effect they have if the person is undergoing proper hormone therapy.
 
What about using an ELO system? That way sources of competitive (dis)advantage are abstracted out, yet competitions remain fair automatically. And it naturally allows for transitions no matter how long they take, since someone's ELO score adapts to outcomes.
 
Last edited:
BobTheCoward said:
Yes, sort of. We can just lower their precedence. Reduce it to the pure idea of the sport. Get across the pool with your body. I would consider proposals to get rid of start times, lanes, fixed distances, etc. But I'm fine with just a pure expression of swimming across the pool faster than others.

I think maybe just simply abstract sport is a better fit.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you are not a sports fan.
 
caveman1917 said:
How about setting limits explicitly per relevant physical observable as determined by the specifics of the sport? For example in boxing you have weight classes, you step on the scale and whatever it reads determines the weight class you're in. And it doesn't matter how you got that weight, or what sex or gender or personality you have.
Click to expand...

Assuming equal skill my money is on the biological male ten out of ten times.
 
crescent said:
The thing is, though, that Transwomen are taking drugs that significantly and massively REDUCE their ability to compete. The male-to-female hormone therapy is the opposite of performance enhancement, it lowers muscle mass and bone mass, although that takes time to occur.

There is already precedence for measuring testosterone levels in athletes, with some suggestion that it only be measured for transgender or intersex athletes.

Testes are part of the endocrine system, they don't need to be removed to remove the effect they have if the person is undergoing proper hormone therapy.
Click to expand...

Reducing their ability to compete against men, leaving them still at an advantage over women.

You can handicap yourself and still retain an advantage, it's all about degree.
 
caveman1917 said:
What about using an ELO system? That way sources of competitive (dis)advantage are abstracted out, yet competitions remain fair automatically. And it naturally allows for transitions no matter how long they take, since someone's ELO score adapts to outcomes.
Click to expand...

Why not just trans leagues for sports?
 
If I was a woman and was competing against a trans-woman in a sports event, I would feel cheated as the trans-woman would most likely have a physical advantage over me.

If I was a nation with few medals, I would put lots of trans-women onto my female Olympic track and field team so as to increase the odds of winning.
 
The Atheist said:
It becomes one of those cases where I wonder whose sensibilities matter most. There are old ladies who'd be horrified if a trans woman was dropping her bikini and swinging at the swimming pool changing rooms.

Sure, the old ladies aren't politically correct, but pushback against that has given us Trump, and shortly, Roy Moore.
Click to expand...

Being horrified by a man's dick in a women's dressing room is not politically incorrect. I would say the man wanting to whip his dick out in a women's changing room is the one causing the problem.

One can have an issue and still respect other's feelings - it goes both ways. Women have a side in this too, it's not all about the trans-person lawyer.

Political correctness has come to mean constantly making concessions to anyone with a gripe. Some of it is legit, a lot is bullcrap. This sports thing - total bullcrap.

It isn't the athletes, or trans-bathroom-users with the agenda either, it is the attorneys who use these people to sue people and make money. Sometimes they may even try and change public policy, but usually the money is enough. There's no public outcry for any of this. It's a manufactured "major issue". It's an issue, sure, but let's get some perspective.

Here's an idea - howzabout a trans-only sports class, where trans men and women can both compete? Should average about equal in the physical strength department ;)
 
Last edited:
theprestige said:
But this isn't true. The case we're discussing here is biological males who start with an athletic advantage over biological females, before any hormone manipulation enters the picture. That makes it distinct from the other cases you discuss.
Click to expand...

Eh, you're only partially right in that I shouldn't have said 'human manipulation'. Otherwise, it's entirely correct. More below.


You're conflating several different sources of athletic advantage. A man who competes against women doesn't become a woman by virtue of the competition. This has no bearing on the gender--biological, psychological, or otherwise--of competitors who seek competitive advantage through other means.

I think you're really stretching here, to prove an unnecessary (and mistaken) point.
Click to expand...

Why do you think the source is the deciding factor? It isn't. You're mixing levels of abstraction to make the comparisons not alike when on the salient levels they're alike.

I'll restate with more words you can disagree with. Why do we ban men from competing with women? Why do we ban doped people from competing with women? Why do we generally ban transgender women from competing with cis-women? They have hormonal advantages* that make the competition unfair or unsafe (or less entertaining). We don't ban men just because they're men; we ban them because of the hormonal advantage. We don't ban trans-women just because they're trans-women, but because of the advantage. Same with people who dope. The source of the advantage simply isn't the criteria, but the type and magnitude of the advantage is. The OP saying it's because trans-women aren't women is simply wrong, as the example of women who gain the same advantage through dopping clearly shows. For their idea to be true, we would have to consider women who dope to no longer be women.

It is no stretch. I think you all are turtling to protect outdated concepts.


*Yes, this is an oversimplification but is shorter to type.
 
Darat said:
Why? It would mean that a transwoman who is taking hormone treatment wouldnt be able to compete. Which is the case for many people who have to take drugs for their medical condition.
Click to expand...


Are there sports which forbid the regular use of drugs that boost estrogen levels to those of a genetic female and concurrently suppress testosterone production toward the same end?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom