Trans Women are not Women

[Chanakya]

B

I think weight classes are equally silly.

Why "silly"? It makes sense to not have a six-and-half-footer fight (or race with) a five-footer, for instance.

Of course, one may prefer to have the fight go on anyway, either for its entertainment value, or because one prefers not to interfere with whatever advantages some competitor has been born with. One may disagree or prefer otherwise, but surely the point of segregation, whether by sex or height or weight or whatever, is reasonable enough?

 

[caveman1917]

Why "silly"? It makes sense to not have a six-and-half-footer fight (or race with) a five-footer, for instance.

Of course, one may prefer to have the fight go on anyway, either for its entertainment value, or because one prefers not to interfere with whatever advantages some competitor has been born with. One may disagree or prefer otherwise, but surely the point of segregation, whether by sex or height or weight or whatever, is reasonable enough?

I think Bob has been taking the sarcasm train in this thread.

 

[theprestige]

Quoted so you can't take it away ...

What are you talking about?

 

[quadraginta]

The logic is circular.

The parent has final say but it's following the child's wishes.

<snip>

We don't even let people tattoo themselves before adulthood.

As it is made clearly and abundantly evident by both the beginning and the end of your post (as well as all that falls between) that you chose to completely ignore the central points of mine, I have to conclude that you have no real interest in engaging in any sort of sincere discourse, but only want to air your uninformed prejudices without the inconvenience of considering any facts which may prove troublesome to them.

 

[Roboramma]

I said what earlier

a modernist, abstract, conceptual art phase of sports appreciation. The concept and ideas of the sport take precedence over traditional aesthetic, technical, and material concerns.

And how is that related to having different strokes in swimming, or weight classes in weight lifting (or fighting)?

 

[BobTheCoward]

And how is that related to having different strokes in swimming, or weight classes in weight lifting (or fighting)?

I would group those as traditional, material concerns of the sport.

 

[Roboramma]

I would group those as traditional, material concerns of the sport.

And you want to get rid of the material concerns of the sport?

 

[BobTheCoward]

And you want to get rid of the material concerns of the sport?

Yes, sort of. We can just lower their precedence. Reduce it to the pure idea of the sport. Get across the pool with your body. I would consider proposals to get rid of start times, lanes, fixed distances, etc. But I'm fine with just a pure expression of swimming across the pool faster than others.

I think maybe just simply abstract sport is a better fit.

 

[Brainster]

So while it is obviously also discriminatory to have a rule something like:

Womens basketball has a new rule. No transwomen.

It shouldn't really be any different than before... It again is the price of having that sport exist in that way.

I'm not really seeing how there is a "new" problem even in light of the current civil rights environment.

It's sensible, but it flies in the face of the current push for everyone to accept that a transwoman is just as much a woman as a ciswoman.

 

[theprestige]

It's sensible, but it flies in the face of the current push for everyone to accept that a transwoman is just as much a woman as a ciswoman.

I think we're not far from a push to accept that transwomen are even more women than ciswomen.

 

[The Atheist]

Quoted so you can't take it away ...

Utterly pointless, then - I wouldn't change a word and I considered it carefully before posting.

That is kind of a cruel notion that you don't like another woman's body because it is different.

Outstanding. Cruelty doesn't exist anywhere else, I presume?

Not to mention the obvious point that it isn't a woman's body, which is kind of the point of the OP. Women are usually identified by the lack of a penis. Even if it's surgically removed, the body is still not a woman's body - it is a man's body with some cosmetic changes. Inside, they will still reflect the biological gender - you know, things like prostates, uteruses, ovaries...

 

[BobTheCoward]

Utterly pointless, then - I wouldn't change a word and I considered it carefully before posting.



Outstanding. Cruelty doesn't exist anywhere else, I presume?

Not to mention the obvious point that it isn't a woman's body, which is kind of the point of the OP. Women are usually identified by the lack of a penis. Even if it's surgically removed, the body is still not a woman's body - it is a man's body with some cosmetic changes. Inside, they will still reflect the biological gender - you know, things like prostates, uteruses, ovaries...

Usually doesn't mean all. As we become more enlightened as a species we become more aware of what actually makes us human.

 

[cullennz]

Usually doesn't mean all. As we become more enlightened as a species we become more aware of what actually makes us human.

Being human doesn't change the fact it's a blokes body

Neither does respecting their wishes in how they want to be identified in life.

Until the fact their body starts to disadvantage others.

Personally think it is weird for her to chose to compete when she knows she has an unfair advantage

 

[Marcus]

Yes, sort of. We can just lower their precedence. Reduce it to the pure idea of the sport. Get across the pool with your body. I would consider proposals to get rid of start times, lanes, fixed distances, etc. But I'm fine with just a pure expression of swimming across the pool faster than others.

I think maybe just simply abstract sport is a better fit.

Yeah, no. No one is going to be interested in watching that, except perhaps you.

 

[Marcus]

Utterly pointless, then - I wouldn't change a word and I considered it carefully before posting.



Outstanding. Cruelty doesn't exist anywhere else, I presume?

Not to mention the obvious point that it isn't a woman's body, which is kind of the point of the OP. Women are usually identified by the lack of a penis. Even if it's surgically removed, the body is still not a woman's body - it is a man's body with some cosmetic changes. Inside, they will still reflect the biological gender - you know, things like prostates, uteruses, ovaries...

For most purposes I'm willing to consider a transwoman a woman if they have had the surgery, if you have a penis, you're a man, sorry.

Sport is different, even after the surgery there is still too much advantage.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Personally think it is weird for her to chose to compete when she knows she has an unfair advantage

Does she have an unfair advantage? The sports bodies obviously believe that there is little enough advantage to allow competition to occur.

We know that when Trans Women undergo hormone therapy that their muscle mass decreases and changes and that bone density decreases (this is an issue with women that take HRT after menopause as well, it can lead to osteoporosis because the HRT strips their bone density.)

With the stand down time meaning that the body will undergo these changes, and their having to be within normal hormonal limits for women, how much of an advantage do they really have? No one seems to be able to quantify it, and in fact the transwomen who have been taking part in sport as women have been getting beaten by naturally born women goes to show that they aren't totally outstripping other women.

It seems to be more a case of people just assuming that if a transwoman finished in the top 5 she was able to do it because she used to be a man, not because she might actually have worked her ass off to get to a level to be in the top 5.

 

[PhantomWolf]

For most purposes I'm willing to consider a transwoman a woman if they have had the surgery, if you have a penis, you're a man, sorry.

What about a man that lost his penis due to accident or illness, is he no longer a man? How about someone that has both a penis and a vigina? How about a Trans-man who hasn't has a Metoidioplasty or Phalloplasty?

Sport is different, even after the surgery there is still too much advantage.

Care to quantify what that advantage actually is?

 

[Marcus]

What about a man that lost his penis due to accident or illness, is he no longer a man? How about someone that has both a penis and a vigina? How about a Trans-man who hasn't has a Metoidioplasty or Phalloplasty?

Keep in mind you're asking for my opinion here, people have different definitions.

A man who has lost his penis is still a man.

A person who has both a penis and a vagina is a hermaphrodite.

For women who trans, I take the same line, if they are serious enough to have the surgery, I consider them a man, even if their chromosones are still female. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to insult someone by using pronouns they don't like, I just call them by their name.

Care to quantify what that advantage actually is?

It has already been mentioned in this thread, if you grow up male, you have physical advantages, like height and bone density, that can't be reversed.

 

[The Atheist]

Neither does respecting their wishes in how they want to be identified in life.

It becomes one of those cases where I wonder whose sensibilities matter most. There are old ladies who'd be horrified if a trans woman was dropping her bikini and swinging at the swimming pool changing rooms.

Sure, the old ladies aren't politically correct, but pushback against that has given us Trump, and shortly, Roy Moore.

Who wins?

For most purposes I'm willing to consider a transwoman a woman if they have had the surgery, if you have a penis, you're a man, sorry.

Really? I thought most people had moved on from that.

Does she have an unfair advantage? The sports bodies obviously believe that there is little enough advantage to allow competition to occur.
...

It seems to be more a case of people just assuming that if a transwoman finished in the top 5 she was able to do it because she used to be a man, not because she might actually have worked her ass off to get to a level to be in the top 5.

I look at it a weightlifter whose record as a man placed him about 10,000th in the world, but as a woman, far past a natural woman's best age, is rated in the top few in the world and a shoe0in for gold at the CG.

I think her three and a bit decades as a man is still doing the trick.

How about someone that has both a penis and a vigina?

Interestingly, the first 3 places at the last Olympics for the women's 800m were filled by women who also have internal male organs - presumably testes. They're possibly the three most manly-looking women on the planet.

A person who has both a penis and a vagina is a hermaphrodite.

You could maybe try the word "intersex". It's an excellent descriptor and it's a lot more accurate than the biological term "hermaphrodite", which doesn't actually cover the physicalities of intersex people.

To those people, it's the gender equivalent of the n-word for coloured people.

 

[Darat]

At the top professional and amatuer levels wouldn't they have to undergo blood tests for drug use? What about having a rule that any "sex" hormone can't be used?