Proof of Immortality, VII

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It's not "my" way. It's the scientific model of human consciousness. It's not something I just made up.

Okay we say that but we've been tricked into a level, tone, and language that... well says that's not true.

By letting the very concept of "Materialism" become such a talking point that we keep coming back to we have presented "Reality is a thing" as just another opinion we're defending.

Again we've let Jabba and a handful of pedantic hangers on goad us into a in a discussion where "Reality exists" is just another subjective POV.

Again we need to stop letting Jabba and the varsity pedantic run in squad force us into an argument where we can't use reality as a valid concept.

- Re #1: Can you replace "selves" with "self-awarenesses"

No. You may not.

Jabba I know you are totally beyond understanding how rude you are being but no. You have to address your opponents arguments, not the arguments you wish they had made because that makes your job easier.

Again Jabba we're not actors in your play. Our job here is not to make your arguing your nonsense as easy on you as possible.

It's frustrating enough when you are discussing something with someone that thinks the only way to argue with someone is to trick them into a "gotcha." It's even worse when the person sucks at it.
 
Jabba I know you are totally beyond understanding how rude you are being but no. You have to address your opponents arguments, not the arguments you wish they had made because that makes your job easier.

I'll have to agree that it's extremely rude.

It's disrespectful of the time and effort everyone has put into addressing this topic that Jabba asked for input on.
 
Ah, you forget the claimed army of silent, lurking supporters Jabba claims to have. What effect will this have on those?

It's an army of one thousand Jabba clones and Jabba can see through all one thousand pairs of eyes, all reading this thread. He'd have them register and post their support, but, unfortunately, they share his email address.
 
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Jabba...

“You know how you sound…? Like a man who’s trying to convince himself of something he doesn’t believe in his heart.”

/Casablanca
 
Jabba

"it doesn’t take much to see that the problems of three little people don’t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Someday you’ll understand that.”

In other words, the universe doesn't care about your childish desire to never die.
 
Up to this point, we agree, especially the last statement.

And this is where we disagree. Putting myself in the same place, I see no reason to be shocked that I exist rather than someone very much like me but in some significant ways different.

Assuming the prevailing materialistic explanation of your existence:

You shouldn't see any reason to be shocked that you exist rather than someone else. You should, however, be shocked that you exist at all.

You should not, however, be shocked that other equally unlikely things exist, unless the existence of the universe shocks you.

The fact that one of those immensely unlikely things is "you" gives you a specific perspective, which gives rise to probabilistic significance.

Suppose you were transported to an alternate universe where the only difference was, say, that I preferred cheddar to other kinds of cheese; would that be a more, less, or equally likely probability universe than the one we live in?

If you don't think your specific body is the only one that could be you, then you are repeatable, therefore immortal in a sense.

If you do think that body is the only body that could be you, then the probability of an alternate universe in which you exist is zero. That specific body is part of this universe and no other.

I would submit that it would be roughly the same probability, therefore there is no particular reason why one should have been preferred over another.

See above. The probability that your specific body could be in another place, time, or universe is zero. A specific body is part and parcel of the specific universe that gave rise to it.

By extension, none of the other possible variations on who I could have been are particularly more or less likely, so there's no reason to be surprised that I ended up as this particular "me."

If other bodies can be "you", then you can exist more than once. If we are part of an eternally inflating multiverse, as existing theory suggests, then you would be essentially immortal - again, if other bodies can be "you".

If you believe no other body could ever be "you", then you should be shocked that "you" exist at all.


That, I think, is the gist of what Jabba is trying to get at with his infinite pool of potential selves; the question of "Why did I end up as this specific self?" The answer to this is, quite simply, "Why not?"
Dave

If you believe that, then you are flirting with immortality yourself.
 
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I thought I made a good analogy (as did many others) quite a while ago when we were talking about VWs. (As an aside, we've gone through VWs, Mt. Rainier, bread...) I mentioned a famous VW named Herbie. This vehicle was driven by actor Dean Jones through the streets of Monte Carlo and immortalized on film. If that VW were parked at an auto show, many people would take pictures of it, want to touch it, and tell their friends they saw it.*

An exact duplicate of this VW would not be treated the same, assuming that it was known that this was a duplicate. If someone said they had a replica of Herbie, it would not garner the same level of excitement. Yet if you put these two vehicles next to each other, no one would be able to tell one from the other. So what makes the original Herbie VW so special? Simply human sentimentality. There is no other difference, by definition of this thought experiment. If the two vehicles were moved around and no one was keeping track of which was the original, then we could never know. This information would be lost forever. The original Herbie would have lost its sentimentality. People could take their picture with either Herbie and it wouldn't matter with which one.

It is the same for human brains. Jabba is stuck on the fact the the copy wouldn't be him and that is the difference. But by definition, the copy is thinking the same thing. Neither Jabba nor the copy would know which one they were. As they each moved on with their lives, no one would ever know. There would be two Jabbas, each as valid as the other. The copy would be every bit Jabba as the other one. He doesn't understand that the copy would have independent thoughts in his (the copy's) head thinking, "I'm Jabba. I'm meeeeeee. The other guy is a copy. I'm different."

In every duplication thought experiment we have brought up, Jabba continues with his assertion that the difference is that the first one was the fiiiiiiiirst one and that this it is significant.







* Some time ago I read about someone saying that we place undue importance on people and objects that are on TV. As an example, a grapefruit is benign and doesn't hold much interest for people in general. But if we broadcast a live image of this grapefruit for 30 minutes a day and called it The Grapefruit Show, people would place importance on it. The grapefruit could be taken on a national tour and people would see it and say excitedly, "That's the grapefruit from TV!"
 
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1) I could but it wouldn't make a difference.



2) You can't find anything on Google supporting the claim that the scientific explanation for consciousness is that it arises from a living brain?

3) What about the books on consciousness you read?
Dave,
- Re #1: OK.
- Re #2: I can't find anything on Google discussing the chemistry of specific self-awareness. No one talks about the chemistry of ME, or YOU.
- Re #3: The different books on consciousness that I have read all say something to the effect that nothing in modern physics actually explains consciousness. It's a mystery!
 
I can't find anything on Google discussing the chemistry of specific self-awareness. No one talks about the chemistry of ME, or YOU.

That's because, as we have repeatedly been telling you, such individualized specificity of the process as you propose it is not a concept in the scientific model. Now do you believe us?

The different books on consciousness that I have read all say something to the effect that nothing in modern physics actually explains consciousness. It's a mystery!

Name the books.

All the books you've cited before on various subjects related to this debate have been "woo" books, so we don't trust that you've done actual scientific homework.
 
Dave,
- Re #1: OK.
- Re #2: I can't find anything on Google discussing the chemistry of specific self-awareness. No one talks about the chemistry of ME, or YOU.
- Re #3: The different books on consciousness that I have read all say something to the effect that nothing in modern physics actually explains consciousness. It's a mystery!

The mystery is HOW the brain does it, not whether or not it does. But you ignore that like you ignore everything you find inconvenient.
 
Dave,
- Re #1: OK.
- Re #2: I can't find anything on Google discussing the chemistry of specific self-awareness. No one talks about the chemistry of ME, or YOU.
That's because it's an idiotic application of the word "specific" to what you've called a process. I think you agree with me on that.

- Re #3: The different books on consciousness that I have read all say something to the effect that nothing in modern physics actually explains consciousness. It's a mystery!
Maybe you should falsify the materialist model as it's given rather than one you dishonestly create?
 
- Re #2: I can't find anything on Google discussing the chemistry of specific self-awareness. No one talks about the chemistry of ME, or YOU.


Jabba -

I know exactly how you feel. I can't find anything on Google discussing how butterflies operate forklifts. Nobody talks about forklift operation by BUTTERFLIES.
 
But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way -- that your particular self-awareness was determined by your particular sperm and ovum and...


Nice one, Jabba, you almost slipped this one by by avoiding use of “agree” in any of its forms! But you couldn’t get it past Jay.

That's your way, not our way. You're constantly trying to introduce inappropriate terminology like "particular" and "specific" to beg the notion that self-awareness is an entity.


And had I not been one the other side of the world, sleeping, I would have busted you on it. The main reason I’ve followed this thread is to play spot-the-fallacy. These days it’s become more a game of spot-the-dishonesty.
 
- No -- but, the only differences (I think) would be time, space and specific atoms.

- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness), even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains. The bread involves nothing analogous to your self-awareness.

- But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way -- that your particular self-awareness was determined by your particular sperm and ovum and the likelihood of the current existence of your particular self-awareness is still something like 1/10100.

Stop straw manning, equivocating, and pulling numbers out of your nether regions. Five years of this is too much.
 
I'd love to get an answer out of Jabba as to what he can possibly get out of this discussion.

Even if we all just magically start agreeing with him, even if his goal is to just quote mine us for his "roadmap" nonsense.

Even if this is trolling it's weird.
 
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