Belz...
Fiend God
I am ashamed to admit I didn't immediately get the reference. I do now though
The typo didn't help. Should be "winnings".
Proof of Immortality, VII
- Thread starter abaddon
- Start date
- Status
The typo didn't help. Should be "winnings".
Jabba
Philosopher
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,613
- No -- but, the only differences (I think) would be time, space and specific atoms.
- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness), even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains. The bread involves nothing analogous to your self-awareness.
- But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way -- that your particular self-awareness was determined by your particular sperm and ovum and the likelihood of the current existence of your particular self-awareness is still something like 1/10100.
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2007
- Messages
- 8,266
They only reason they have different specific self-awarenesses is because they are two different, specific brains. The only difference between the two instances of self-awareness is that they come from two separate brains. Time, space and specific atoms are the only way the selves are different.
It's not "my" way. It's the scientific model of human consciousness. It's not something I just made up.
jond
Illuminator
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Messages
- 3,440
You should really read all the responses. Pretending that you haven’t been shown other emergent properties in loaves of bread is rather dishonest.
How would immortality change the likelihood of your body existing? After all, immortality requires something else (soul) in addition to your body, and it requires a means of the body and soul functioning together. It is impossible for that to be more likely than your body alone.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Belz...
Fiend God
The bread has plenty of emergent properties.
What's been asked of you is to tell us how consciousness differs from other emergent properties in any respect other than the value you assign to it.
Belz...
Fiend God
No, it's not "something" like that number. You invented that number and have made no effort to justify its use.
Furthermore, you have not explained how being immortal makes you more likely.
1. There's no such thing as "specific" self-awareness, for the umpteenth time.
2. Your claim that there would be a difference in two identical things is nonsense and is unsupported by any facts, logic, or evidence.
That's not what anyone is saying. Nobody but you is obsessed with sperm or ovum in this conversation. They're saying that self awareness is a property that a functioning brain can exhibit. Sperm and eggs don't have brains so they're not relevant.
Two identical people would both be self aware and would have identical memories, opinions, etc. until or unless something happened differently to them AFTER the copy was made. Focusing on genetics makes no sense, as that's just one of many different things that would need to be identical between them.
Cool random number! What was the likelihood of Znarfblatt Beeplegorp existing? Very small? Does the fact that they don't exist confirm materialism? There are INFINITE people that don't exist, and only a finite number that do. That would seem to mean that your formula is wrong, since most people don't exist AS PREDICTED BY YOUR FORMULA'S VERSION OF MATERIALISM. Therefore it is confirmed, and you're not immortal.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Why would the consciousnesses produce by two identical brains be different? What would the difference be?
Jabba
Philosopher
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,613
- Re #1: Can you replace "selves" with "self-awarenesses"?
- Re #2: I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I can't find anything on Google making that claim.
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2007
- Messages
- 8,266
I could but it wouldn't make a difference.
You can't find anything on Google supporting the claim that the scientific explanation for consciousness is that it arises from a living brain?
What about the books on consciousness you read?
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
Ah, good. Just like two identical Jabbas.
Like the two identical loaves of bread having two different identical aromas of bread?
Changing the word from 'particular' to 'specific' doesn't make 1+4=7.
Ah, good. You agree that the two would be identical.
Yes they do. Loaves of bread also have processes which, in our thought experiment of perfect duplicates, would have identical but separate processes. When you repeat your lie about not understanding, is it a different lie? Does that make your lie immortal?
You seem even happier to misrepresent materialism as an optional choice selected at random by your interlocutors. If you would be honest, you will remember that YOU chose to attempt to falsify the materialist model.
When you repeat your lie, does that make it immortal? Is it the same lie? How does 'particular' apply to what you've called a process?
Why are you bringing in genetics now? I suppose if you're going to drown in ignorance, it doesn't matter that you make the pool deeper.
I'm starting to think that your lie IS immortal.
Good round numbers often come out of good round orifices.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
All in all it's just another bread in the wall
All in all you're just another bread in the wall
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
False assertion
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
And that is materialism.
No, it would be the same in that respect. Claiming that one property is somehow magically different than all the others is special pleading.
No, there's no notion under materialism of a "specific" self-awareness, just as in automotive engineering there is no "specific" going-60-mph. You're specially pleading self-awareness to be an entity instead of the property it is under materialism.
That's your way, not our way. You're constantly trying to introduce inappropriate terminology like "particular" and "specific" to beg the notion that self-awareness is an entity. And you're the one who interpolated embryology into this, where it doesn't belong. The materialist aspects of the human mind aren't a special product of embryology; it is simply a collection of matter exhibiting an emergent property. Collections of matter under materialism may exhibit emergent properties no matter in what way the collection arose.
Of course, and I would even encourage it because "self" alone wrongly suggests it would be an entity under materialism. "Self-awareness" more accurately describes the process materialism envisions produces the effect we observe as E. And that's why I use "sense of self" rather than just "self." Under materialism this is a process, not an entity. You don't have to model it as a process when you're reckoning your ~H, but you do have to when you're talking about H.
Ha, ha! You can't find any references to the scientific model of consciousness arguing that self-awareness is the product of a functioning human brain? It took me about 90 seconds to find the first scientific paper on cognitive neuroscience that purports to correlate consciousness to various measurable aspects of brain activity.
But why would you stop at Google? When you were so excited about Bayes you had no problem seeking out not one but two academic experts on statistics to vet your claims. You have access to world-class scientists. Why limit your ability to verify your critics' claims to your own Google fu?
The Sparrow
Graduate Poster
I think we should continue with relevant Casablanca quotes.
Jabba, if you are immortal then:
"Who are you really, and what were you before? What did you do and what did you think"
Jabba, if you are immortal then:
"Who are you really, and what were you before? What did you do and what did you think"
Belz...
Fiend God
You're trying to use logic and reason on jabba. That's his least vulnerable spot.
The Sparrow
Graduate Poster
Touche!
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Ah, you forget the claimed army of silent, lurking supporters Jabba claims to have. What effect will this have on those?
- Status