Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

Skeptic Ginger said:
You do know there are multiple women who accuse Trump of doing exactly what he admitted doing on that tape, right?
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I did not know that. I've heard that there are multiple women who accuse him of something, but I haven't bothered to track down the cites and get the specifics of their allegations. Do you have a link? I'd like to know more.
 
LTC8K6 said:
I have no way of knowing who is telling the truth, just as with previous Presidents accused of various bad/illegal behaviors.

Just as with many of the cases in the news right now.

Unless you prove someone guilty, then they are innocent of the charge.

That's how I work for the most part. Sometimes I get caught up in the rush and forget that there isn't actually any evidence.

Now, if you have some decent evidence to show me, I will certainly consider that evidence when making a judgement.

How many anecdotes do you need to add together to make up evidence?

If stories equal evidence, then Bigfoot is very real.

And yes, I realize that people are in jail based on only words.
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Do you see no difference in the reports against Franken and these other men? Are you equating an accusation that might be a misperception with those where no misperception is possible? Do you think the absence of "everyone knew" when it is present in all the other accusations carries any weight?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Do you see no difference in the reports against Franken and these other men? Are you equating an accusation that might be a misperception with those where no misperception is possible? Do you think the absence of "everyone knew" when it is present in all the other accusations carries any weight?
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The problem I have with Franken is not that his behavior is "as bad" as others, it's that I know that I would be fired and in very dire straits for the same behavior, and Franken won't be.

At worst he will resign and get another lucrative gig and collect his massive pension on down the road.

Most likely, he will simply carry on and be re-elected.

There's no coverup network for me, no slush fund for payouts for my behavior, no contracts that will pay off my accusers and keep me employed...
 
LTC8K6 said:
The problem I have with Franken is not that his behavior is "as bad" as others, it's that I know that I would be fired and in very dire straits for the same behavior, and Franken won't be.

At worst he will resign and get another lucrative gig and collect his massive pension on down the road.

Most likely, he will simply carry on and be re-elected.

There's no coverup network for me, no slush fund for payouts for my behavior, no contracts that will pay off my accusers and keep me employed...
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You ignored all my points and asserted you'd be fired for the same and the slush fund payout applied to Franken when there is no such evidence that would happen.

Care to actually address my points?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Do you see no difference in the reports against Franken and these other men? Are you equating an accusation that might be a misperception with those where no misperception is possible? Do you think the absence of "everyone knew" when it is present in all the other accusations carries any weight?
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Does the amount of evidence matter?

Is an accusation of armed bank robbery better or worse than an accusation of shoplifting if both are limited to accusations?

Or do they have the same weight?
 
That's a piss-poor analogy.

Does the shoplifter get the same sentence as the armed robber? And neither are guilty based on accusations. And there can be a preponderance of evidence or a single eye witness in either case which makes a big difference in drawing conclusions before the conviction.

And you still ignored my points.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
That's a piss-poor analogy.

Does the shoplifter get the same sentence as the armed robber? And neither are guilty based on accusations. And there can be a preponderance of evidence or a single eye witness in either case which makes a big difference in drawing conclusions before the conviction.

And you still ignored my points.
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The problem I have with Franken is not that his behavior is "as bad" as others
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That means that I don't think Franken's behavior is as bad as other reported behaviors.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
I would like to see a real accusation other than "I remember it this way" crap.
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Five accusations isn't enough? One or two could be lying but all five? It is showing a pattern now, not a Cosby type drug and rape them, but still a pattern.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Do you see no difference in the reports against Franken and these other men? Are you equating an accusation that might be a misperception with those where no misperception is possible? Do you think the absence of "everyone knew" when it is present in all the other accusations carries any weight?
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I think the accusations against Franken are very similar to some of the accusations against Trump:

Cathy Heller: "Some 20 years ago, she claims, when she met Donald Trump for the first and only time, he grabbed her, went for a kiss, and grew angry with her as she twisted away. “Oh, come on,” she alleges that he barked, before holding her firmly in place and planting his lips on hers."


"Temple Taggart, the 21-year-old Miss Utah, was startled by how forward he was with young contestants like her in 1997, his first year as the owner of Miss USA, a branch of the beauty pageant organization. As she recalls it, he introduced himself in an unusually intimate manner.

He kissed me directly on the lips. I thought, “Oh my God, gross.” He was married to Marla Maples at the time. I think there were a few other girls that he kissed on the mouth. I was like “Wow, that’s inappropriate.”

Karena Virginia " “He then walked up to me and reached out his right arm and grabbed my right arm,” she continued. “Then his hand touched the right side of my breast. I was in shock. I flinched. ‘Don’t you know who I am? Don’t you know who I am?’ – that’s what he said to me. I felt intimidated and I felt powerless. When my car pulled up and I got in, after I closed the door, my shock turned to shame.” "

If you look at all of the accusations, they are about him kissing them, grabbing their ass, touching their breasts. A few allege that he put his hand up their skirts.

If Franken's actions could be misinterpretations and/or politically motivated exaggerations, then mustn't you concede that the same applies to accusations against Trump?
 
LTC8K6 said:
That means that I don't think Franken's behavior is as bad as other reported behaviors.
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I agree what Franken is accused of is not nearly as bad as what Roy Moore is accused of doing, but it might be bad enough so that he should not be in the US Senate.
 
xjx388 said:
I think the accusations against Franken are very similar to some of the accusations against Trump:

Cathy Heller: "Some 20 years ago, she claims, when she met Donald Trump for the first and only time, he grabbed her, went for a kiss, and grew angry with her as she twisted away. “Oh, come on,” she alleges that he barked, before holding her firmly in place and planting his lips on hers."


"Temple Taggart, the 21-year-old Miss Utah, was startled by how forward he was with young contestants like her in 1997, his first year as the owner of Miss USA, a branch of the beauty pageant organization. As she recalls it, he introduced himself in an unusually intimate manner.

He kissed me directly on the lips. I thought, “Oh my God, gross.” He was married to Marla Maples at the time. I think there were a few other girls that he kissed on the mouth. I was like “Wow, that’s inappropriate.”

Karena Virginia " “He then walked up to me and reached out his right arm and grabbed my right arm,” she continued. “Then his hand touched the right side of my breast. I was in shock. I flinched. ‘Don’t you know who I am? Don’t you know who I am?’ – that’s what he said to me. I felt intimidated and I felt powerless. When my car pulled up and I got in, after I closed the door, my shock turned to shame.” "

If you look at all of the accusations, they are about him kissing them, grabbing their ass, touching their breasts. A few allege that he put his hand up their skirts.

If Franken's actions could be misinterpretations and/or politically motivated exaggerations, then mustn't you concede that the same applies to accusations against Trump?
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You think those are the same? :eye-poppi

Re Tweeden: It was a skit, not an intro. There was no come-on to go with it.
The others: he tried to kiss me, I believe on the mouth, and kissed my cheek. End of story.
He touched me during a photo op. End of story.

None of those include any "come on baby" or "do you know who I am" or walking in on women dressing. :rolleyes:

If you see those as the same we might as well stop right here because I don't. I see nothing on the part of Franken that says he moved on any of these women. He didn't reach up anyone's skirt. All of the events were in full view of other people (I don't know about the skit rehearsal).
 
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Politically speaking, I usually agree with Ginger, but I think it is obvious that she has dovetailed into party support.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Some men =/= Franken

I mean, unless you're also going to allow "black men statistically..." to be a valid argument for weighing the guilt or innocence of a specific black male.

Immutable qualities are not behavioral descriptors and simplistic paradigms like male=voracious predator and woman=helpless victim is seriously damaging to both sexes. We ingrain it in during sex ed, even. Men are warned to "control themselves" (in a darker sense than the plain reading) and women to "exercise caution" and it's actually validating the entire (false) paradigm.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
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Where are you coming from? I mentioned Ted Kennedy, and men being capable of being sleeze balls. No all encompassing statements and certainly nothing racial.
 
theprestige said:
Trump's real sin is not respecting his accusers' "experiences".
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Franken would have more cred if he issued an actual apology, rather than the "I'm sorry you feel bad" type. I don't recall Trump apologizing for any of his groping, but he did apologize for his pussy grabbing comments. That's a rather low bar, I'm not prepared to give Franken any great credit for passing over it.
 
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