Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes. We are seeing a pattern of... people defending abusers based primarily on their particular political leanings and affiliations.

Or people like this dismissing the entire discussion with this bull **** hand waving.
Do you see me defending Conyers? Any of the leftist actors and directors?

From a Keillor op ed: I’m a conservative. He might be very middle of the road, but I've certainly never heard anything from him suggesting he was a Progressive.

What both have in common at this point (not sure more won't come out about Keillor) are accusations that are based on these arms around the fan photo incidents. Seriously, that's it? It's really hard to buy that a serial sexual abuser gets his kicks solely by sneaky feels in photo ops.
Now if those reports were among other groping reports, exposing oneself, whatever, and "everyone knew" then they might be significant.

At this point these reports are too vague and one must consider some accusations really should be heard with a degree of skepticism.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sure.
Here in the South, I am considered very liberal by my peers. I have never voted for a republican in my life.

On this board, I like to think of myself as a moderate although it appears (to me) that the leftward shift of all things social is perhaps leaving me behind a little.

Reads like convenient double talk.

 

[The Big Dog]

At this point these reports are too vague and one must consider some accusations really should be heard with a degree of skepticism.

there is nothing vague about them, and victim bashing and arguments from incredulity are the antithesis of skepticism.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Perhaps Skeptic Ginger can tell us how many will be required. Surely more than 6.

I'm pretty sure I've been very clear about my objections to putting Franken in the same boat as the other slew of abusers that have been outed in this recent flurry.

Numbers of assertions in and by itself is not sufficient, especially when there are other possibilities to explain the complaints.

 

[Crawtator]

I'm really torn on this rash of accusations against all different types of people, political affiliation notwithstanding. I wonder how much is due to empowerment and how much is due to something altogether more frightening (not saying it is happening, but it clearly could)...a movement by people much akin to the Salem Witch Trials. It is difficult for me not to take some of these seriously, but how do you prove a negative (that the action never happened)? There was plenty of eye-witness evidence provided in Salem of witchcraft, but we know all of that to be bunk. Could mass delusion and bad memory be playing a part here as well?

Of course, when a substantial number of the accused have come forward to admit to said allegations or even apologize whether it be a full mea culpa or not, it strengthens the power of all accusations being made and empowers others to come forward, whether truthful or not, with good intent or not.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
I find the accounts quite plausible and consistent with the recent "outings" of others.

That's the thing, they are not consistent with the other abuse stories, not in the least.

And neither is the one in the Jezebel article: On stage in front of everyone Franken supposedly went for a kiss on the mouth yet somehow it ended up on the cheek.

 

[LTC8K6]

And yet no one saw this blatant breast grope (on a USO tour no less where people would be looking) and it didn't get into the photo? What is to stop every Franken hater with a photo with him from making these accusations?

It could have been on the side away from the people who might see it and photograph it. That's how a groper would do it if there was a crowd around.

The pic could reflect her turning to the left just before the pic was taken.

Franken is facing the camera, and she is not facing the camera. She is turned away from the camera, with only her head facing it.

 

[applecorped]

I guess Hillary was wrong and women don't have the right to be believed

 

[Dr. Keith]

You didn't think it was locker room talk and accept Trump's apology?

I was told I didn't even need to do that: it was consensual on its face.

 

[dudalb]

Perhaps Skeptic Ginger can tell us how many will be required. Surely more than 6.

it is a sliding scale I am sure, with the number being 1 if you are a Republican...

 

[theprestige]

I was told I didn't even need to do that: it was consensual on its face.

That would explain why no woman has come forward in the current climate of empowerment, to say she did not consent to being grabbed by Donald Trump.

But I think the more reasonable explanation is that if it happened, it happened with Weinsteinian consent: women feeling pressured to go along rather than risk their careers or social standing. Which is of course no real consent at all.

 

[LTC8K6]

I was told I didn't even need to do that: it was consensual on its face.

I think it was far more likely to be Trump lying/bragging, trying to be the big important and powerful man, than to be anything that actually happened.

 

[Dr. Keith]

That would explain why no woman has come forward in the current climate of empowerment, to say she did not consent to being grabbed by Donald Trump.

But I think the more reasonable explanation is that if it happened, it happened with Weinsteinian consent: women feeling pressured to go along rather than risk their careers or social standing. Which is of course no real consent at all.

I think it was far more likely to be Trump lying/bragging, trying to be the big important and powerful man, than to be anything that actually happened.

You both make good points.

I'm just pointing out that at the time it was highlighted that even if Trump did do what he said he did, it was not assault: it was consensual. Or at least he thought he had consent, they let him do it. What's the problem if they let him do it? Does that logic not apply here?

I thought it weak sauce, but it was semantic gravy to some.

 

[LTC8K6]

You both make good points.

I'm just pointing out that at the time it was highlighted that even if Trump did do what he said he did, it was not assault: it was consensual. Or at least he thought he had consent, they let him do it. What's the problem if they let him do it? Does that logic not apply here?

I thought it weak sauce, but it was semantic gravy to some.

Of course talking like that, even in a "locker room", promotes the idea that the behavior is okay for the person in power, when it is anything but...

 

[theprestige]

You both make good points.

I'm just pointing out that at the time it was highlighted that even if Trump did do what he said he did, it was not assault: it was consensual. Or at least he thought he had consent, they let him do it. What's the problem if they let him do it? Does that logic not apply here?

I thought it weak sauce, but it was semantic gravy to some.

I suppose you'd have to find someone who was actually advancing the "thought he had consent" argument, and ask them.

Ironically, Skeptic Ginger in this very thread has argued that Tweeden's career path suggests at least implied consent to the kind of thing she accused Franken of doing. So she might be a good one to ask about Trump's situation.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

it is a sliding scale I am sure, with the number being 1 if you are a Republican...

More baseless handwaving away the arguments put forth in this thread. I assume that is because you can't argue the facts that there are no, "we all knew" reports on Franken, the claims he groped women during photo-ops is hardly the same as the other accusations made against the others, and there are plenty of liberals I have not defended and there is Keillor who I always thought was a conservative I am defending at this point.

But no worries, you can ignore the differences in the accusations against Franken and Keillor which is the actual debate, and just make your BS claim it's partisanship and you don't have to worry your little head about it.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I suppose you'd have to find someone who was actually advancing the "thought he had consent" argument, and ask them.

Oh sure, I get to go plow through some of those **** show threads from back then. Just to be reminded of those times when I had such a rosy view of my fellow man. Nah, I'm good.

Ironically, Skeptic Ginger in this very thread has argued that Tweeden's career path suggests at least implied consent to the kind of thing she accused Franken of doing. So she might be a good one to ask about Trump's situation.

No, I actually read her posts and this assertion has been corrected more than once. Her argument was that she had likely experienced worse, not that she had implied consent. It's still a **** argument, so feel free to swing away at it, no need for the straw.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Of course talking like that, even in a "locker room", promotes the idea that the behavior is okay for the person in power, when it is anything but...

You do know there are multiple women who accuse Trump of doing exactly what he admitted doing on that tape, right? And you know he's bragged about walking into the Miss Universe dressing room, right?

I'm not quite sure what you mean Trump is all bluster and no sexual assaulter? Or maybe I misread your posts.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
No, I actually read her posts and this assertion has been corrected more than once. Her argument was that she had likely experienced worse, not that she had implied consent. It's still a **** argument, so feel free to swing away at it, no need for the straw.

Thank you.

That was one argument, I made others.

Sex jokes were common on USO tours. It makes the kissing skit less unusual and opens the possibility Tweeden could easily have misinterpreted the rehearsal. I do think it's hypocritical of Tweeden to dish the grope jokes out them complain when one of the jokes is on her. Franken has apologized for that fake grope joke.

I don't know if he French kisses on stage, only that there hasn't been any "everyone knew" to go with the single accusation. And yes, I am dismissing the photo-op groping. Those accusations by themselves are inconsistent with typical sexually abusive behavior.

 

[LTC8K6]

You do know there are multiple women who accuse Trump of doing exactly what he admitted doing on that tape, right? And you know he's bragged about walking into the Miss Universe dressing room, right?

I'm not quite sure what you mean Trump is all bluster and no sexual assaulter? Or maybe I misread your posts.

I have no way of knowing who is telling the truth, just as with previous Presidents accused of various bad/illegal behaviors.

Just as with many of the cases in the news right now.

Unless you prove someone guilty, then they are innocent of the charge.

That's how I work for the most part. Sometimes I get caught up in the rush and forget that there isn't actually any evidence.

Now, if you have some decent evidence to show me, I will certainly consider that evidence when making a judgement.

How many anecdotes do you need to add together to make up evidence?

If stories equal evidence, then Bigfoot is very real.

And yes, I realize that people are in jail based on only words.