Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

Delphic Oracle said:
Yes, because human beings incorporate more than a single piece of information when making decisions about things. We all have varying probabilistic hurdles that must be cleared to determine what level of certitude we have about incidents we did not personally witness.

Franken has done tongue-in-cheek sexualized comedy gags and supports causes that are empowering to women.

Trump has been straight-up creepy in his remarks about women since the 80s.

Those observations also don't prove anything one way or the other, but they do contribute to an overall assessment and provisional inclination.

Not every instance of someone coming to two different conclusions based on one single similar point of data (an accusation was made) is hypocrisy.
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Ted Kennedy was instrumental in many women's issues yet was a disgusting bastard to women. Men can easily be both. It sounds more and more like Franken is also.
 
Wolrab said:
Ted Kennedy was instrumental in many women's issues yet was a disgusting bastard to women. Men can easily be both. It sounds more and more like Franken is also.
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Some men =/= Franken

I mean, unless you're also going to allow "black men statistically..." to be a valid argument for weighing the guilt or innocence of a specific black male.

Immutable qualities are not behavioral descriptors and simplistic paradigms like male=voracious predator and woman=helpless victim is seriously damaging to both sexes. We ingrain it in during sex ed, even. Men are warned to "control themselves" (in a darker sense than the plain reading) and women to "exercise caution" and it's actually validating the entire (false) paradigm.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
 
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uke2se said:
To be fair, the allegations against Trump were a lot more plausible given that they came from Trump himself.
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I have no doubt that Trump has inappropriately touched women in the past. He has always strongly denied the allegations but I still think there is something there.

What's funny is that what Trump described in that video is exactly what is playing out with people like Franken, Weinstein, Conyers, Lauer, et. al. It's like Trump laid bare the ids of famous and powerful guys. It's becoming pretty clear that this is a not uncommon behavior among these men.
 
beren said:
If you are asking these rhetorically to cast aspersions on the accusers' credibility, please stop because it is a despicable thing to do.
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To question the credibility of the accuser is despicable? I see what you are doing with this tactic


If there is a third possibility that I am ignoring, please let me know what it is.
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It's obvious but you can't see it for virtue
 
uke2se said:
To be fair, the allegations against Trump were a lot more plausible given that they came from Trump himself.
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Trump the continual liar? Trump the fabulist who craves attention and approval? That guy?

I mean, take a look at the "pussy grabbing" remarks, in the context of the recent exposures. Trump is a Hollywood outsider, who's always wanted to be a part showbiz. Look at the way he finagles bit parts and walk-ons for himself, in any production he can.

So he's rubbing elbows with these Hollywood types, wishing he could be one of them, be accepted by them. Of course it'll never happen, but he can dream. And he must know about the open secrets. He knows how the bigwigs, the Matt Lauers and the Harvey Weinsteins, act. Their sense of entitlement towards women. Their shameless sexual greed. So naturally he invents a lie, a locker-room boast of the kind he imagines they make--perhaps the kind he's heard them make. It's a fable he made up, to try to fit in, to be accepted as one of them.

But I do like the idea that something is more believable because Trump said it.
 
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theprestige said:
The former elected official tells us that while she’s long admired Franken’s politics, she decided to talk about the incident to encourage him to accept responsibility for his actions.

“My intent in coming forward is not to negate the good work he’s done or smear his name,” she told us. “I want him to take personal responsibility for his actions, learn from this, not repeat the behavior, and go forward with respect in all his interactions with women.”​

That's some weapons-grade Stockholm Syndrome, right there.
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It's amazing.
 
The Big Dog said:
"When he put his arm around me, he groped my right breast. He kept his hand all the way over on my breast," Kemplin said.

"I've never had a man put their arm around me and then cup my breast. So he was holding my breast on the side."

...

“He took it and leaned toward me with his mouth open. I turned my head away from him and he landed a wet, open-mouthed kiss awkwardly on my cheek.”

... wait, have you read any of the women's accounts at all?? It seems like no
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My not fully endorsing a verbal attestation does not mean I didn't hear/read it.

Did you not read Franken's apology? It seems like no.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
 
Delphic Oracle said:
So the victim "can't" speak up at the time.

The accused can't realistically defend themselves from what someone says they think they remember happening a certain way decades ago.

So excuse me if I have serious doubts that "call out culture" and a few self-flattering hashtags is going to be the vehicle that takes us into a new world of equality.

We were doing well with examples like the Stanford rapist and Steubenville. Showing how the justice system and public officials fail to act even in the face of overwhelming (physical and surveillance) evidence, even when the case is finished and a guilty verdict rendered, etc.

The problem I have with "Believe her" is that its a request to create a special case. I like equality. So claims of events long in the past that I did not witness, there is no corroboration for, are quite extraordinary in their scope, and being made by a person I have absolutely no familiarity with...

...is going to be treated with the same level of provisional acceptance or doubt regardless of if they are a man or woman.
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I recall lines such as "This is not a court of law", used to justify calls for firing/removing/suspending people accused of various acts, with no evidence other than words, and certainly nothing that would ever hold up in said court.

I don't think that should happen, but clearly it does and it's clearly acceptable.

You can be "found guilty" in Twitter/Facebook/Instagram/Youtube kangaroo court and lose your job and your reputation.
 
LTC8K6 said:
I recall lines such as "This is not a court of law", used to justify calls for firing/removing/suspending people accused of various acts, with no evidence other than words, and certainly nothing that would ever hold up in said court.

I don't think that should happen, but clearly it does and it's clearly acceptable.

You can be "found guilty" in Twitter/Facebook/Instagram/Youtube kangaroo court and lose your job and your reputation.
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Some may find it acceptable.

I do not.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
 
Delphic Oracle said:
My not fully endorsing a verbal attestation does not mean I didn't hear/read it.

Did you not read Franken's apology? It seems like no.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
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Well having read it, then,why did you deliberately misrepresent the accusations?

franken said to the first accuser that he “remembered it differently” but then the creep never said how he rembered it. You bought that dumpster fire of an apology?
 
Pterodactyl said:
Yes. We are seeing a pattern of women empowered to confront sexual abuse on an unprecedented scale.
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We might also be seeing a pattern of false accusations, though I can't think of a reason why someone would make up such a thing about a politician. It's not as if there are millions to get in settlement, so I'm more inclined to believe your interpretation. Mind you, you never know.
 
bluesjnr said:
To question the credibility of the accuser is despicable? I see what you are doing with this tactic




It's obvious but you can't see it for virtue
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How does asking why a person acted in a manner exactly like what we often see from real victims question their credibility?


That is like asking "why did that man swing that bat at that ball?" as a way to discredit the claim that he is a baseball player.

Attacking credibility is not despicable. Doing it dishonestly is.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
And yet no one saw this blatant breast grope (on a USO tour no less where people would be looking) and it didn't get into the photo? What is to stop every Franken hater with a photo with him from making these accusations?
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Chivalry?

"Franken hater."

Victim bashing 101, folks.
 
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