Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

angrysoba said:
While some Democrats have been claiming it is convenient for the Republicans to be able to kick around Franken to distract from Moore, it could equally be argued that some Democrats have found it convenient that the Republicans have someone alleged to have committed far worse acts.

Both sides are engaged in whataboutery, even though the acts they are accused of are nothing like equivalent.

I have just seen a tweet by Nate Silver that makes the distinction clear:



Link

I stop short of saying he should resign unless the ethics committee decide he should. (Though I don't know what action they can take).
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Who's Nate Silver?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Wrong answer. My opinion is as good as yours.

OMG, he did something wrong. First, there's a big if there. I'm not buying it. There's little supporting evidence and he's not even answered yet.

Second, good grief, don't get on an elevator if a woman is alone on it. We must have a perfect world. It's *********** trivial at this point. TRIVIAL. Just like the fake grope joke on a USO tour where Tweeden did grope jokes on stage all the time. And Franken apologized for offending the wee lassie.

Wrong answer. You supported your POV with the detail the woman reported the butt grab months ago. It is a well documented fact the Russian trolls were indeed active at that time. If you want to present a different argument why Russian trolls are off the table, feel free. But the timing of the complaint does not support your position.

Come on, you think no one ever lied to join in their 15 minutes of fame or alt-right political activists never made up fake BS about their opponents? That's their mainstay, lying about their opponents.

Unlike the other accusations, there's very little to corroborate 3 women citing a single, seconds-long incident against Franken.

Yeah, because it's impossible Franken drew the attention of partisan hacks exaggerating butt grabs when it was just Trump that was the pussy-grabber in chief. :rolleyes:


I understand the problem of scale here, I don't care if a man gets on an elevator I'm on. I don't care if a guy flirts with me without first asking my permission. I don't need to live in a world where women are seen as so fragile it's OK for them to fake grope guys but heaven forbid some guy fake gropes them.

I find it insulting that I'm supposed to be that weak and frail and so easily offended or frightened. OTOH, we have actual sexual harassment and assault which is actually worth my being affronted.
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Lots of innuendo and misrepresentation there. Not much worth responding to.

I'll just reiterate that it is obvious the Huffington Post accusers are not Russian trolls, and that bringing up Russian trolls is desperate.

Also, I know that Trump and Franken are accused of very different things, and I have said that over and over again.

I'm saying Franken is an apple, and Trump is an Orange, and then you are saying they are different.

Yes, I know that.

And stop poisoning the well all the time with things like elevatorgate. Again, you are bringing up different things to tell me that they are different.

Yes, I know that. I freakin know that.
 
****in' Franken. I wanted you to be president. The additional accounts, which were told to a reporter years ago after the incident happened, are convincing enough that Al enjoys playing grabass.

I like the part where Franken says "I can categorically say that I did not proposition anyone to join me in any bathroom." This reminds me of an anecdote he included in one of his books, maybe Lying Liars Who Lie. In the 70s he co-wrote an SNL sketch about President Carter growing into a giant and visiting devastation upon the city. A reporter asks the White House Press Secretary, "Is it true Carter is over a hundred feet tall?" The reporter issues a strong denial? "Over a hundred feet tall -- that's ridiculous. That's absolutely false." Another reporter cocks his head, "Is he over... 90 feet tall?" The Press Secretary says, "I'm through answering questions."
 
Gotta admire the way some folks are just going down with the ship. Reminds me of the pro-Weiner blogger who still insisted it was some plot to get him, even after Weiner fessed up.

ETA: I read Franken's book Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot. I could tell that he was trying to tell jokes, but the only one that made me laugh was when he pointed out that according to Rush Limbaugh, feminists believe that all heterosexual intercourse is rape. Al reported that he had met many feminists over the years, and only one of them agreed with that statement, and, "We've been happily married for 20 years."
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Yes it does, at least for the moment.

Don't forget his apology was incredibly empathetic and generous to Tweeden and the first butt grab accuser. That is what one would expect from someone who is the opposite of a sexual abuser.

Yes I read the accounts. My Russian troll comment was off the cuff, not some evidence based allegation. At the same time it is worth keeping on the list of possibilities here.

Yes I think attention to accusers of Franken, (because I don't agree a couple people claiming he grabbed their butts during a photo op is significant at this point), is nothing more than a distraction so Trump and Moore supporters can excuse real sexual abuse and weak-on-marketing-the-Progressive-message Democrats can fall all over themselves to not look partisan on sexual abuse.
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This distraction works well because some left partisans go full-out to denial of facts and conpiracy-theoroid. It's a losing strategy.

The right way to deal with it is to admit what emerges as fact: Al Franken likes to overstep bounds with women sometimes by putting his hands where he shouldn't and overdoing kisses.
Just accept that fact.
Get it over with.

And then you are free to point the othet obvious truth: that sort of behaviour, although bad, is not nearly as bad as what Moore, Trump, Bill Clinton or even Weinstein, Cosby etc did.

And this is not a partisan issue.

Whether that makes Franken unfit to stay on as Senator can then be discussed - it's a fair topic of discussion. You can grill TBD, for example, on it all day long, for if, e.g., TBD wants to see Franken's head roll, he should much sooner ask to see Moore's and Trump's heads roll. That is then not whataboutism, it's gauging the ethical standards to apply.
 
phiwum said:
Here's what you asked.
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Ah, right.

I have kissed girls without prior, explicit permission.
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Well if you expected them to be receptive for one reason or another, that's a bit different. I don't always ask my wife for a kiss. But she's my wife, so we both expect that we can initiate contact with implicit agreement.

Strangers, not so much.

Franken kissed a girl without prior, explicit permission. It sounds like she was reluctant to rehearse the kiss at the time, suggesting that he shoulda knowed better.
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That's also true. We don't have a recording of the event, just both their words.

But kissing a girl without explicit, prior permission is not by itself assault.
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Careful, now. What I said earlier is kissing a person without any indication of prior consent. Being married sure qualifies as indication of consent. French kissing someone for a rehearsal of what they expect to be a regular kiss is not.

It is how romances develop, even an hour or so after meeting a girl (who is at that point a nigh stranger).
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Yeah but that's not the context we're discussing. Context is important to determine if something wrong occured, as you hint at in the rest of your post.
 
luchog said:
That's why women should learn to lie back and enjoy it, and there won't be any problems.
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That bears no ressemblance to what Oystein said. How does that help the discussion?

acbytesla said:
Now, you shouldn't cheat on your lady, but the gist of what Woody is saying is true. Women dictate how far we go.
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I have it on good authority that women have zero power in our society, so that can't possibly be true! ;)
 
Argumemnon said:
...snip.... I don't always ask my wife for a kiss. But she's my wife, so we both expect that we can initiate contact with implicit agreement.



...snip...
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That was part of the reasoning for many of the laws in various countries that said a husband couldn't rape his wife because by marrying there was implicit consent.
 
Darat said:
That was part of the reasoning for many of the laws in various countries that said a husband couldn't rape his wife because by marrying there was implicit consent.
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Gee, you're right. Every time I kiss my wife without her explicit permission, I'm also committing sexual assault! I'm a terrible person.

Oh, wait, we weren't talking about rape, were we?
 
Darat, Argumemnon, you both surely know how to differentiate between initiating and carrying through a sexual act. Yes, husband has implicit approval and does not need to ask for explicit agreement to initiate a kiss or embarking on a round of sex, but when wife then signals "no", he needs to respect that. If he does, then having initiated was not a transgression. It would have been with a total stranger in the street.
 
Oystein said:
Darat, Argumemnon, you both surely know how to differentiate between initiating and carrying through a sexual act. Yes, husband has implicit approval and does not need to ask for explicit agreement to initiate a kiss or embarking on a round of sex, but when wife then signals "no", he needs to respect that. If he does, then having initiated was not a transgression. It would have been with a total stranger in the street.
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Why are you telling me? That's essentially what I've been saying already.
 
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