Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

[luchog]

I quote the guitarist: It's not harrassment if you both enjoy it. He was perfectly explicit that is was NOT harrassment, right there on the USO stage!

That's why women should learn to lie back and enjoy it, and there won't be any problems.

 

[acbytesla]

Here's what you asked.

I have kissed girls without prior, explicit permission. I did so expecting that they would not balk at it. I reckon that at some time, I was rebuffed, but I don't recall any such occurrences.

Franken kissed a girl without prior, explicit permission. It sounds like she was reluctant to rehearse the kiss at the time, suggesting that he shoulda knowed better.
But kissing a girl without explicit, prior permission is not by itself assault. It is how romances develop, even an hour or so after meeting a girl (who is at that point a nigh stranger). Outside of the university administrations, we don't expect verbal permission for every sexual advance we make. If rebuffed, of course, we stop, but at that point, we didn't commit assault.

There has to be something more to sexual assault than merely kissing a girl without asking permission, or even more than touching a girl's breast, butt or naughty bits without permission. I've done all those things, in appropriate contexts, been rebuffed many times for the escalation of some of those acts, but was not guilty of assault. Normal growed folk do indeed move forward sexually without asking permission and sometimes are told no, at which point such normal folk back off.

I'm willing to accept that Franken's kiss might have been a mild form of assault, but it would be nice to have a clear definition of sexual assault (in moral terms, preferably).

'Shoulda known better.' Maybe, maybe not. Us men can be pretty dense at picking up the signals but women can also be terrible at sending them. They want to make it clear that they aren't interested but at the same time don't want to be mean and end up not being clear.

There is a funny scene in the movie EDtv where Woody Harrelson gets caught cheating on his girlfriend and Matthew McConnehy asks him why he didn't stop when the girl came on to him. His reply was 'that's their job. We're the gas. They're the brake.'

Now, you shouldn't cheat on your lady, but the gist of what Woody is saying is true. Women dictate how far we go.

And this namby pamby wishy washy crap from an adult woman is a bit too much to swallow. You would think that a woman of Tweeden's age would know how to make her feelings clear. And frankly, this is the kind of nonsense that detracts from what Charlie Rose, Bill O'Reilly and Harvey Weinstein did.

 

[phiwum]

'Shoulda known better.' Maybe, maybe not. Us men can be pretty dense at picking up the signals but women can also be terrible at sending them. They want to make it clear that they aren't interested but at the same time don't want to be mean and end up not being clear.

There is a funny scene in the movie EDtv where Woody Harrelson gets caught cheating on his girlfriend and Matthew McConnehy asks him why he didn't stop when the girl came on to him. His reply was 'that's their job. We're the gas. They're the brake.'

Now, you shouldn't cheat on your lady, but the gist of what Woody is saying is true. Women dictate how far we go.

And this namby pamby wishy washy crap from an adult woman is a bit too much to swallow. You would think that a woman of Tweeden's age would know how to make her feelings clear. And frankly, this is the kind of nonsense that detracts from what Charlie Rose, Bill O'Reilly and Harvey Weinstein did.

You go farther than I'm willing to at this time. Tweeden claimed she resisted rehearsing the kiss but gave in under pressure. That seems to put the blame on Franken already.

 

[acbytesla]

You go farther than I'm willing to at this time. Tweeden claimed she resisted rehearsing the kiss but gave in under pressure. That seems to put the blame on Franken already.

Keep in mind, that is her memory of the incident. But I think sexual harassment and assault needs to be a hell of a lot more clear than this.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The tongue deal would be sexual assault to me. It would be above mere harassment.

The fact that Franken wrote the lines and then tried to forcibly rehearse the act is an indicator to me that it was not a mistake.

IIRC, an unwanted french kiss is a sexual assault in many jurisdictions.

Wow!

You certainly have an imagination here about what happened.

It has been established that a kissing skit would have been appropriate for the USO venue. No one forced anyone to rehearse and rehearsing is pretty normal for a stage act/skit not yet performed.

Tweeden claims she knew Franken's motive. She can speculate or guess but she can't have known his motive. And one claim his hand was on a butt during a photo does little to nothing to establish a pattern.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, maybe I'm alone here. I think it was clumsy and stupid. I don't think it was an assault.

I can go with clumsy and stupid or it didn't happen the way Tweeden perceived it.

Both seem reasonable to me.

I should also like to point out, and ask the men in the thread who don't get off on assaulting women: Does sneaking a tongue in during a stage skit turn you on? I'm guessing it wouldn't.

There are guys (and maybe a rare gal) who get off on this kind of behavior. In my life I've been groped a time or three in a crowd. I can't for the life of me imagine how that turns a guy on. Do they get a thrill in their penis? Laugh at the joke they got away with? I don't get it.

I accept there are guys who somehow get off on such absurdly brief sexual contacts. But it can't be every guy. And if Franken were one of those kind of guys, there would be a lot more than this incident and a perceived ass pinch. All the other men involved here have been reported as having this behavior and "everyone knew".

I have to conclude such contact is not something Franken would get a hard-on over. I can believe that Tweeden believes some men want to sneak a kiss. That's what I was saying, that surely a lot of men have acted that way toward her. Her confirmation bias would then be that Franken would get off on brief tongue action.

So tell me guys, how is a kiss in a skit that was not actual making out turn a guy on who wasn't one of these sexual assaulters?

 

[acbytesla]

I can go with clumsy and stupid or it didn't happen the way Tweeden perceived it.

Both seem reasonable to me.

I really hate this one. All the other accusations about men are pretty damn clear. This one isn't at all. I also think Franken has handled the accusation as classy as one could possibly handle something like this. He's not calling her a liar. He's not bellowing with outrage. His response is measured and respectful even though he might want to act like say Dona,d Trump.

I also find it politically suspicious as Franken has been quite effective on the judiciary committee.

 

[acbytesla]

I can go with clumsy and stupid or it didn't happen the way Tweeden perceived it.

Both seem reasonable to me.

I should also like to point out, and ask the men in the thread who don't get off on assaulting women: Does sneaking a tongue in during a stage skit turn you on? I'm guessing it wouldn't.

There are guys (and maybe a rare gal) who get off on this kind of behavior. In my life I've been groped a time or three in a crowd. I can't for the life of me imagine how that turns a guy on. Do they get a thrill in their penis? Laugh at the joke they got away with? I don't get it.

I accept there are guys who somehow get off on such absurdly brief sexual contacts. But it can't be every guy. And if Franken were one of those kind of guys, there would be a lot more than this incident and a perceived ass pinch. All the other men involved here have been reported as having this behavior and "everyone knew".

I have to conclude such contact is not something Franken would get a hard-on over. I can believe that Tweeden believes some men want to sneak a kiss. That's what I was saying, that surely a lot of men have acted that way toward her. Her confirmation bias would then be that Franken would get off on brief tongue action.

So tell me guys, how is a kiss in a skit that was not actual making out turn a guy on who wasn't one of these sexual assaulters?

I don't think so. I'm also not sure the guys that might of groped you in a crowd were trying to get sexual arousal as much as I think they got a thrill out of committing a taboo. And it's not really a sexual thrill.

By the way, I've had a woman come on to me exactly that way. We hadn't ever spoke before the grope and although we had exchanged looks. From a guy's perspective, it was one of the hottest things that has ever happened to me. That said, I would NEVER in a million years do that to a woman. That is one of those things a woman can do but a man ABSOLUTELY can't.

But back to Franken, I too have my doubts that he was trying to get some cheap thrill.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

A good point. I never asked permission before kissing a woman either, far as I can recall. Rather, I tried to read her signs and see if the time was acceptable. I can't recall ever being rebuffed, but I am exceptionally sexy.

This whole behavioral shift that is being demanded won't work in a vacuum. I can recall half a dozen discussions on this topic in mixed-sex company where all parties (myself included in younger years) concluded quite heartily that asking permission is the un-sexiest way to go about it and will absolutely be rejected on principle ("too timid/insecure").

My sexuality is such that flings and casual sex are not net positives for me. There needs to be an emotional bond and a trust system. Since becoming comfortable with this, I have actually found the idea of having a sober-minded discussion quite appealing. The ability to have a very awkward and difficult conversation is a good sign of maturity and communications skills that I find attractive. Let me tell you there is absolutely no room for that in modern dating. No way it will fly with someone you just met that night and there's a very high-risk catch-22 of divulging feelings to someone you've grown close to which feels to them like flipping the script.

So I can say quite assuredly that men starting to ask permission for everything with no other changes in the cultural cues is not a realistic solution.

ETA: There's also a whole range of amusing behaviors when you are neutral (or clueless) about a woman being into you. After all, the expectation is that as a male I should at least be superficially interested in a booty call or **** buddy arrangement unless I find them totally repulsive, right? Even if they wouldn't be willing to, I'm supposed to want to. Many just don't comprehend any role other than gatekeeper.

 

[The Big Dog]

Forced his tongue down her throat
Groped her while sleeping
Felt up the ass of another woman.

Not a pattern.

Lolz, that is some next level truthering

 

[Toontown]

Forced his tongue down her throat
Groped her while sleeping
Felt up the ass of another woman.

Not a pattern.

Lolz, that is some next level truthering

Oh, there's a pattern all right, and it goes all the way to the top. Right up to the Head Pussy Grabber, who selectively supports or condemns lesser pussy grabbers according to their political affiliation.

Because some pussy grabbers are "fine people". Others, not so much, as determined by their respective political/ideological affiliations.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Forced his tongue down her throat
Groped her while sleeping
Felt up the ass of another woman.

Not a pattern.

Lolz, that is some next level truthering

All of that happens within 5 minutes of the first gaggle of talent and helpers at the Burlesque shows I run sound for now and then.

 

[acbytesla]

Forced his tongue down her throat
Groped her while sleeping
Felt up the ass of another woman.

Not a pattern.

Lolz, that is some next level truthering

Total blathering NONSENSE.

13 women said Donald Trump sexually harassed or assaulted them. Now that's a pattern. And this was known BEFORE the election and you still supported and voted for him.

So you'll excuse me for thinking you are so outraged.

CORRECTION. 16 women.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Forced his tongue down her throat
Groped her while sleeping
Felt up the ass of another woman.

Not a pattern.

Lolz, that is some next level truthering

Not a pattern

 

[Noztradamus]

Maybe, because it was so insignificant in his mind that he barely remembered it.

"But for me, it was Tuesday"

 

[Oystein]

...
None of this has anything to do with Tweedens hypocrisy and her sexual assaults. It does double down on the fact that you are happy for women or men to be sexually assaulted as long as they don't complain. ...
...the fact that she has sexually assaulted (by her own metric) unconsenting adults in the past. ...

This is crazy foolish stupid nonsense running on stilts.

At the beginning of our exchanged, you claimed that she assaulted men, referring to the guitarist and Williams, who were unconsenting.

My questions about the wider context of the videos I presented to you have EVERYTHING to do with that claim! Because they most clearly prove (not suggest, not appear - prove!) that both men approved, and do not consider it assault: It was part of their stage show!

Hands up, I watched and was referring to the videos that were linked in this thread. You seem to have longer ones. I still see Tweeden sexually assaulting the guitarist and Robin Williams.

You did not watch the videos with the full context as I provided you with, did you?

Then he's a *********** idiot and anybody agreeing with him is likewise. There is so much wrong with his assertion I don't know where (nor care to) start.

You live in some strange universe. Do you also think that every sex scene ever shot on film was rape?

With that, I'll reiterate that I'm done with you. I'm kicking myself for even going against my prior commitment to not engage any further.

Do yourself a favour, watch the video, answer my questions.


And eat dirt. It's better than continuing to make a complete fool of youself.

 

[Oystein]

If we're using that standard, and Tweeden didn't saying anything for a decade, how was one to know she didn't like it?

That phrase sounds like something Donald Trump would say.

You completely, 100% missed the context in which I used that quote.

 

[Oystein]

That's why women should learn to lie back and enjoy it, and there won't be any problems.

And this has what to with the arguments I presented?

 

[The Big Dog]

Trump
Burlesque
Trump

Anyone else beginning to see a pattern?

Let me give you a hint

Dodge
Dip
Duck
Dive and
Dodge

 

[acbytesla]

Trump
Burlesque
Trump

Anyone else beginning to see a pattern?

Let me give you a hint

Dodge
Dip
Duck
Dive and
Dodge

More NONSENSE. No one dodged or dipped or ducked a damn thing. We have been addressing it all day. You on the other hand are desperately trying to create a FALSE EQUIVALENCE.