Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

[acbytesla]

But you just said you did not believe any of the Franken accusers, so to you that is like none!

But you brought up Trump again....hmm, it is almost as if people are desperate to change the subject from Senator Handsy Mcgropy.

Sensational.

Yea, I mean if were going to hang Franken, don't you think the Donald should go first?

 

[applecorped]

I won't believe it until he has four accusers!

I won't believe it until he has 5 accusers!

 

[The Big Dog]

Yeah, just saw it and the woman is going on and on about being angry "for over 10 years".

I'll still wait to hear if this is a pattern or one person. Joking about putting your hands on breasts, I'm just not that upset about the joke. He's a comedian, they were on a comedy tour. If guys took a joke picture like that no one would think twice.

This is back to elevatorgate where every little thing is some horrible objectification of women. Franken's apology is pretty thorough. The accuser is claiming the apology was possibly put out hastily by a staffer. That's bull ****.

If on the other hand, a number of women come out and report a pattern of behavior I'll reconsider.


And by the way, this sadly serves to lessen the real complaints.

Have you made it clear you are not equating Franken's butt touch (if it happened, we are still talking about 3 people with uncorroborated claims) with the sexual assault supported by a sufficient amount of evidence?

As for straw, are you claiming no one in this thread is equating Franken with the slew of others?

Four is a number, not the number Franken’s supporters had in mind tho.

 

[angrysoba]

Have you made it clear you are not equating Franken's butt touch (if it happened, we are still talking about 3 people with uncorroborated claims) with the sexual assault supported by a sufficient amount of evidence?

This is a tortuous construction. I have no idea what it means. Let me make it clear. If he touched women sexually, without their consent, whether it be one, two, three or more, then yes, it may well be sexual assault. Different jurisdictions classify sexual assault differently, so it may not be possible to give a definitive answer. I would imagine that an ethics investigation in the Senate would look at this behaviour extremely unfavourably. Wouldn't you?

As for straw, are you claiming no one in this thread is equating Franken with the slew of others?

No, that is not what I said. I said:

it is becoming a strawman defence by those defending Franken that everyone who gives credence to the stories about Franken are trying to equate Franken with Moore, Trump, Louis CK or Kevin Spacey. Certainly I do not think they are in the same league, but it does NOT mean that Franken isn’t guilty of sexual misbehaviour

I am saying that this is not a view held by everyone. We can easily agree that even if Franken is guilty of these things, it would not make him as bad as Moore, or Weinstein, or Trump if the allegations against them are true.

 

[Toontown]

Oh mercy, this thread is pure magic

Oh mercy. No it's not. This is nothing but a load of politically charged crap.

Do you know what they say about people who are too easily entertained?

 

[The Big Dog]

Oh mercy. No it's not. This is nothing but a load of politically charged crap.

Do you know what they say about people who are too easily entertained?

Umm, they are easily entertained?

Plus I earned it. Reading all these steadily more hysterical posts is hard work!

I suspect by tomorrow that the four (plus) victims of the scumbag will be sent into hiding by his fanatic supporters.

 

[Toontown]

Trump
Burlesque
Trump

Anyone else beginning to see a pattern?

Let me give you a hint

Dodge
Dip
Duck
Dive and
Dodge

I am reminded of Charles Manson song lyrics.

 

[angrysoba]

According to the Huffington Post, one of those accusations had been made on Facebook more than a month ago. And one of the accusers had told one of the reporters their story some years ago. Both seem very specific about the incidents and claim corroboration. They also both claim to be liberals and not right-wing partisans. I think we can rule out Russian trolls.

 

[Toontown]

I suspect by tomorrow that the four (plus) victims of the scumbag will be sent into hiding by his fanatic supporters.

You couldn't possibly suspect more wrongly. Franken, Conyers, and Moore (if his compromised ass makes it to Washington and is stupid enough to show up) will all be the objects of ethics investigations, very likely followed by expulsion.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is a tortuous construction. I have no idea what it means. Let me make it clear. If he touched women sexually, without their consent, whether it be one, two, three or more, then yes, it may well be sexual assault. Different jurisdictions classify sexual assault differently, so it may not be possible to give a definitive answer. I would imagine that an ethics investigation in the Senate would look at this behaviour extremely unfavourably. Wouldn't you?

Only if it's purely partisan.

Why are these "he touched my butt" accusations credible? What supports them? There are no people saying "everyone knew Franken was a butt grabber". There are a gazillion conservatives that hate Franken and have every reason to gin that up in hopes of it taking attention away from Moore and Trump.

That is not what you see with the other accusations. Moore's accusers are most (if not all) Republicans. Trump's history long predates his POTUS run.

... I am saying that this is not a view held by everyone. We can easily agree that even if Franken is guilty of these things, it would not make him as bad as Moore, or Weinstein, or Trump if the allegations against them are true.

We certainly agree here. So why is there so much attention being paid to Franken? Why is his resignation even being discussed?

It's clearly a distraction from what matters the same way Trump's Tweets often distract from the fact his minions are gutting consumer protection, his administration reeks with corruption and the GOP legislators are trying to make the rich richer and the poor pay for it.

But I digress and that analogy is for another thread.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

According to the Huffington Post, one of those accusations had been made on Facebook more than a month ago. And one of the accusers had told one of the reporters their story some years ago. Both seem very specific about the incidents and claim corroboration. They also both claim to be liberals and not right-wing partisans. I think we can rule out Russian trolls.

You do know the Russian trolls have been at it for 2 years, right?

 

[angrysoba]

Only if it's purely partisan.

Why are these "he touched my butt" accusations credible? What supports them? There are no people saying "everyone knew Franken was a butt grabber". There are a gazillion conservatives that hate Franken and have every reason to gin that up in hopes of it taking attention away from Moore and Trump.

That is not what you see with the other accusations. Moore's accusers are most (if not all) Republicans. Trump's history long predates his POTUS run.


We certainly agree here. So why is there so much attention being paid to Franken? Why is his resignation even being discussed?

It's clearly a distraction from what matters the same way Trump's Tweets often distract from the fact his minions are gutting consumer protection, his administration reeks with corruption and the GOP legislators are trying to make the rich richer and the poor pay for it.

But I digress and that analogy is for another thread.

Certainly the Moore, Trump and Weinstein allegations are more serious, but that doesn’t mean the allegations against Franken can be dismissed.

Have you read the Huffington Post article with the two new allegations? Do you still stand by your assertion that this could be the work of Russian trolls?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Certainly the Moore, Trump and Weinstein allegations are more serious, but that doesn’t mean the allegations against Franken can be dismissed.

Yes it does, at least for the moment.

Don't forget his apology was incredibly empathetic and generous to Tweeden and the first butt grab accuser. That is what one would expect from someone who is the opposite of a sexual abuser.

Have you read the Huffington Post article with the two new allegations? Do you still stand by your assertion that this could be the work of Russian trolls?

Yes I read the accounts. My Russian troll comment was off the cuff, not some evidence based allegation. At the same time it is worth keeping on the list of possibilities here.

Yes I think attention to accusers of Franken, (because I don't agree a couple people claiming he grabbed their butts during a photo op is significant at this point), is nothing more than a distraction so Trump and Moore supporters can excuse real sexual abuse and weak-on-marketing-the-Progressive-message Democrats can fall all over themselves to not look partisan on sexual abuse.

 

[Toontown]

I think we can rule out Russian trolls.

I'd like nothing better than to rule out Russian trolls forever.

But imagine my surprise when I tried to open a Twitter account, only to find that one of them had already used my email to create a fake twitter account.

 

[angrysoba]

I'd like nothing better than to rule out Russian trolls forever.

But imagine my surprise when I tried to open a Twitter account, only to find that one of them had already used my email to create a fake twitter account.

If you start accusing Franken of grabbing your butt then we can assume that accusation is false, but the point is not that Russian trolls do not exist, only that these accusations are not examples of this.

 

[angrysoba]

Yes it does, at least for the moment.

Don't forget his apology was incredibly empathetic and generous to Tweeden and the first butt grab accuser. That is what one would expect from someone who is the opposite of a sexual abuser.

Wrong answer. If he did what was alleged, then he did something wrong.

Yes I read the accounts. My Russian troll comment was off the cuff, not some evidence based allegation. At the same time it is worth keeping on the list of possibilities here.

Wrong answer. The Russian troll thing was clutching at a straw.

The first woman, a 38-year-old book editor who was living in Minneapolis at the time, told HuffPost that she had just finished performing with a feminist choir at the Women’s Political Caucus event, which Franken and his wife, Franni Bryson, attended. After the ceremony, she and other members of the choir approached him for photos.

“My mother loves Al Franken. She listened to Air America [on which Franken had a radio show] every day,” the first woman said. ”I saw him and asked if we could take a photo together for my mother, and we stood next to each other ... and down his hand went.”

HuffPost spoke to two sources close to the first woman who corroborated her account.

Very specific and corroborated. Not a Russian troll.

The second woman told several people ― including one of the reporters for this story, Zachary Roth ― about the incident some years ago, but didn’t want it reported then. She said she didn’t tell anyone at the time of the incident because inappropriate behavior from men was not that unusual to her or her friends.

“Sexual harassment happens so often, you have to learn how to move on,” she said, describing her thinking at the time.

Several other factors also left her feeling powerless.

She was known to the reporter and had told him the story years ago but not wanted it reported. Were the Russians playing the long game knowing that when the Weinstein thing happened, then it would be the perfect way to detract from the Moore thing? Those Russians seers!

Yes I think attention to accusers of Franken, (because I don't agree a couple people claiming he grabbed their butts during a photo op is significant at this point), is nothing more than a distraction so Trump and Moore supporters can excuse real sexual abuse and weak-on-marketing-the-Progressive-message Democrats can fall all over themselves to not look partisan on sexual abuse.

I think some Democrat supporters are falling over themselves to look very partisan. But as you say, the ones who are considering Franken's behaviour to be worrying are just weak! They should be putting out the propaganda, right?

 

[angrysoba]

While some Democrats have been claiming it is convenient for the Republicans to be able to kick around Franken to distract from Moore, it could equally be argued that some Democrats have found it convenient that the Republicans have someone alleged to have committed far worse acts.

Both sides are engaged in whataboutery, even though the acts they are accused of are nothing like equivalent.

I have just seen a tweet by Nate Silver that makes the distinction clear:

I think Al Franken should resign from the Senate.

I think Roy Moore should resign from the Senate race and (if the allegations are true) be thrown in jail for many years.

Link

I stop short of saying he should resign unless the ethics committee decide he should. (Though I don't know what action they can take).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wrong answer. If he did what was alleged, then he did something wrong.

Wrong answer. My opinion is as good as yours.

OMG, he did something wrong. First, there's a big if there. I'm not buying it. There's little supporting evidence and he's not even answered yet.

Second, good grief, don't get on an elevator if a woman is alone on it. We must have a perfect world. It's *********** trivial at this point. TRIVIAL. Just like the fake grope joke on a USO tour where Tweeden did grope jokes on stage all the time. And Franken apologized for offending the wee lassie.

Wrong answer. The Russian troll thing was clutching at a straw.

Wrong answer. You supported your POV with the detail the woman reported the butt grab months ago. It is a well documented fact the Russian trolls were indeed active at that time. If you want to present a different argument why Russian trolls are off the table, feel free. But the timing of the complaint does not support your position.

Very specific and corroborated. Not a Russian troll.

Come on, you think no one ever lied to join in their 15 minutes of fame or alt-right political activists never made up fake BS about their opponents? That's their mainstay, lying about their opponents.

Unlike the other accusations, there's very little to corroborate 3 women citing a single, seconds-long incident against Franken.

She was known to the reporter and had told him the story years ago but not wanted it reported. Were the Russians playing the long game knowing that when the Weinstein thing happened, then it would be the perfect way to detract from the Moore thing? Those Russians seers!

Yeah, because it's impossible Franken drew the attention of partisan hacks exaggerating butt grabs when it was just Trump that was the pussy-grabber in chief.

I think some Democrat supporters are falling over themselves to look very partisan. But as you say, the ones who are considering Franken's behaviour to be worrying are just weak! They should be putting out the propaganda, right?

I understand the problem of scale here, I don't care if a man gets on an elevator I'm on. I don't care if a guy flirts with me without first asking my permission. I don't need to live in a world where women are seen as so fragile it's OK for them to fake grope guys but heaven forbid some guy fake gropes them.

I find it insulting that I'm supposed to be that weak and frail and so easily offended or frightened. OTOH, we have actual sexual harassment and assault which is actually worth my being affronted.

 

[Darat]

Here's what you asked.



I have kissed girls without prior, explicit permission. I did so expecting that they would not balk at it. I reckon that at some time, I was rebuffed, but I don't recall any such occurrences.

Franken kissed a girl without prior, explicit permission. It sounds like she was reluctant to rehearse the kiss at the time, suggesting that he shoulda knowed better.

But kissing a girl without explicit, prior permission is not by itself assault. It is how romances develop, even an hour or so after meeting a girl (who is at that point a nigh stranger). Outside of the university administrations, we don't expect verbal permission for every sexual advance we make. If rebuffed, of course, we stop, but at that point, we didn't commit assault.

There has to be something more to sexual assault than merely kissing a girl without asking permission, or even more than touching a girl's breast, butt or naughty bits without permission. I've done all those things, in appropriate contexts, been rebuffed many times for the escalation of some of those acts, but was not guilty of assault. Normal growed folk do indeed move forward sexually without asking permission and sometimes are told no, at which point such normal folk back off.

I'm willing to accept that Franken's kiss might have been a mild form of assault, but it would be nice to have a clear definition of sexual assault (in moral terms, preferably).

She agreed to the kiss.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

While some Democrats have been claiming it is convenient for the Republicans to be able to kick around Franken to distract from Moore, it could equally be argued that some Democrats have found it convenient that the Republicans have someone alleged to have committed far worse acts.

Both sides are engaged in whataboutery, even though the acts they are accused of are nothing like equivalent.

I have just seen a tweet by Nate Silver that makes the distinction clear:

Link

I stop short of saying he should resign unless the ethics committee decide he should. (Though I don't know what action they can take).

So Franken should resign over this trivial **** but Trump, well let's not bother calling for him to resign because everyone knows he won't.


If I were to make a list of who should resign from the Senate, actual sexual assault would be at the top, blatant corruption would be next on the list and believe me, there are plenty of Senators and Congresspersons on both sides of the aisle there. Franken's supposed butt grabs would be so far down the list the whole Congress would be emptied out before I got down to his behavior.