Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

[Belz...]

Please tell me the number of assault cases prosecuted in the US where the offense was a french kiss?

What does that have to do with whether it's illegal or not?

The question is whether it is, not whether it's ever prosecuted.

I don't know about you. But back in the day when I use to chase just about anything in a skirt, I made many advances on women. Some of them stupid and unwanted. But the moment a woman reacted negatively, I stopped. Do you think I assaulted those women?

Did you french kiss them without permission? That's not what you're describing here.

 

[Giz]

Please tell me the number of assault cases prosecuted in the US where the offense was a french kiss?

Do you think that a DA would prosecute a case against Franken for this even if he wasn't a Senator?

I think we are stretching our definitions.
I don't know about you. But back in the day when I use to chase just about anything in a skirt, I made many advances on women. Some of them stupid and unwanted. But the moment a woman reacted negatively, I stopped. Do you think I assaulted those women?
.

Did you grab strangers butt or boob without permission?

 

[angrysoba]

Please tell me the number of assault cases prosecuted in the US where the offense was a french kiss?

Why should anyone have to do that? The question is whether or not a French kiss could be considered sexual assault if it was not consensual. I think it certainly could be.

 

[theprestige]

Nonconsensual oral penetration? I don't see any upside to *not* treating it as a sexual assault--other than protecting Al Franken from the consequences of being a misogynist douchebag. Obviously that's an upside for many, but comes with its own set of tradeoffs. So there may not actually be a net upside there.

 

[acbytesla]

What does that have to do with whether it's illegal or not?

The question is whether it is, not whether it's ever prosecuted.

It matters a lot. What is and isn't acceptable is a cultural norm and is dictated by these things. Consensual oral sodomy is against the law in more than a few States but hasn't been prosecuted. Is it wrong?

Did you french kiss them without permission? That's not what you're describing here.

I don't think I have EVER French kissed a woman after asking 'can I stick my tongue in your mouth?' No, I always just did it. If they reacted negatively, I stopped. Is that assault? I don't think so.

 

[theprestige]

I don't think I have EVER French kissed a woman after asking 'can I stick my tongue in your mouth?' No, I always just did it. If they reacted negatively, I stopped. Is that assault? I don't think so.

Were you consenting lovers engaged in mutual exploration, escalating by degrees from talking to touching to kissing to penetration?

Or were you rehearsing a stage play with a professional acting partner, and a script that included a kiss?

What you're actually demonstrating is that Franken's behavior is excusable only if you ignore or change the context entirely. Why don't you try addressing the claims as they are, not as you would like to pretend they are? Franken and Tweeden were not making out. Your scenario is a red herring.

 

[Belz...]

It matters a lot. What is and isn't acceptable is a cultural norm and is dictated by these things. Consensual oral sodomy is against the law in more than a few States but hasn't been prosecuted. Is it wrong?

You're trying to create an equivalency, here. Not prosecuting something might be due to a great number of things, among them a law being obsolete, or simply too hard to prosecute. You're assuming that the reasons for not prosecuting one must be the same as the reasons for not prosecuting another. That is an unwarranted assumption.

In any event that's entirely irrelevant. I don't rely on prosecutors to tell me what's legal or illegal, nor do I rely on the law to tell me what's right or wrong. Sticking your tongue in a woman's mouth without any sort of indication of consent is both immoral and repulsive. People who do this are, for lack of a better term, pricks, in addition to being guilty of sexual assault if that's in the books. And yes, they should be prosecuted if it's possible.

 

[theprestige]

And yes, it's legitimate to call it sexual assault, even if the law itself technically does not.

 

[Oystein]

This will be our last exchange as it is clear you are playing games and I don't have the patience that Skeptic Ginger displayed.

You said, here at post #1020



Please note the highlighted, emboldened, italicised and underlined word. You made that statement emphatic with the inclusion of the word "See".

I've got a good notion that you'll try and wiggle out using the defence; I wrote "accused Tweeden of inappropriateness" not "complained". I hope not.

Yes, I said that - and I am surprised you call that "emphatic".

How about you try to answer this question, straight and honestly, without wiggling: Have any come foward and accused Tweeden of inappropriateness?

Quite, but she still (using her own metric) assaulted them. She's a hypocrite.

That was a OSU stage show for crying out loud! What happens on an OSU stage must surely be judged by different standards than what happens off-stage, don't you think?
In another post, I related what happened to me once at the hands of a table dancer - and how fundamental a difference it makes whether we are in a table dance bar or somewhere else.

One guy was playing guitar with his hands nowhere near her so you're talking ***** in that case. She approached him from behind and to the side and started to rub herself against him.

Well, yes - video is here.
Please describe to me what is happening at and around 5:46 minutes!
Please describe to me what is happening at and around 5:50 minutes!
Seconds later, Tweeden comes and rubs herself against the guitarist. In context - is she out of line?
Please describe to all of us here what, EXACTLY, the guitar player does with his left hand at 5:56 minutes!
Please describe his facial expressions at and around 6:00 minutes!

Are you sure you want to maintain the silly fiction that he was victim of an unexpected, inappropriate assault, or rather the active, voluntary participant of a totally normal USO show?

This same guitarist continues. Please transcribe for us what he says starting at 7:00 minutes. I hear:

"And, uh, I was seeing these posters hanging out, about 'Sexual Harrassment'. And I say: It's not harrassment if you both enjoyit."​

Ha!
And then please describe what that guitarist is doing at 8:05 minutes, right after he said "...do something extraordinairy, you do this:"!!
Does the person whose butt he gropes there think this is inappropriate on a USO stage? Describe the scene that unfolds! Please at least WATCH the entire scene in context!


And then tell me: What Tweeden did with the guitarist, was that unexpected? Out of line? Did he diapprove?


There are clear, unequivocal answers to these three questions: No! No! The HELL yes!

The other was standing next to her as she introduced him. The next moment she mounted him.

You talking about the scene with Robin Williams?
They do that here on Dec 16, 2005 at 1:20 min (note what Williams does at 1:24!), they do it here in December 2004 at 38:00 min (note how much of a distance she keeps to John Elway at 19:20, and how chastise the hug with Blake Clark at 28:00), and again here at 10:38. I think they did it every *********** time! It was a regular part of her introducing Williams every single time. Do you think Williams objected but had no power to make her stop? <--- Please answer that straight and honestly!

It is difficult to imagine how you arrive at that conclusion whilst using Tweeden's metric. I'm beginning to doubt you've even watched the videos.

It is obvious YOU didn't watch the videos in full context. I hope you did now.

You seem to be of the opinion that as long as nobody, especially the victim, complains sexual assault is OK. Eww

I quote the guitarist: It's not harrassment if you both enjoy it. He was perfectly explicit that is was NOT harrassment, right there on the USO stage!


Now go eat dirt.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, maybe I'm alone here. I think it was clumsy and stupid. I don't think it was an assault.

 

[Oystein]

Well, maybe I'm alone here. I think it was clumsy and stupid. I don't think it was an assault.

I am with you. Clumsy, stupid. Wrong. But not assault.
That would devalue the experience of victims of actual assault.

There is a scale of degrees of sexual transgressions. And Franken is very low on it. Moore is significantly higher up. Trump is possibly higher up still, Bill Clinton too, and the likes of Weinstein and Cosby even higher.

 

[Belz...]

Well, maybe I'm alone here. I think it was clumsy and stupid. I don't think it was an assault.

Well, there's a basis for discusion, there: where does the threshold for sexual assault lie, in your opinion?

 

[bluesjnr]

Yes, I said that - and I am surprised you call that "emphatic".

But you insisted the contrary! You were adamant! Is it that your beef is with the single word "emphatic"?

Like I predicted, I knew you'd weasel out of admitting you were wrong but this is frankly laughable.

How about you try to answer this question, straight and honestly, without wiggling: Have any come foward and accused Tweeden of inappropriateness?

I've already answered that.

That was a OSU stage show for crying out loud! What happens on an OSU stage must surely be judged by different standards than what happens off-stage, don't you think?
In another post, I related what happened to me once at the hands of a table dancer - and how fundamental a difference it makes whether we are in a table dance bar or somewhere else.


Well, yes - video is here.
Please describe to me what is happening at and around 5:46 minutes!
Please describe to me what is happening at and around 5:50 minutes!
Seconds later, Tweeden comes and rubs herself against the guitarist. In context - is she out of line?
Please describe to all of us here what, EXACTLY, the guitar player does with his left hand at 5:56 minutes!
Please describe his facial expressions at and around 6:00 minutes!

Are you sure you want to maintain the silly fiction that he was victim of an unexpected, inappropriate assault, or rather the active, voluntary participant of a totally normal USO show?

This same guitarist continues. Please transcribe for us what he says starting at 7:00 minutes. I hear:

"And, uh, I was seeing these posters hanging out, about 'Sexual Harrassment'. And I say: It's not harrassment if you both enjoyit."​

Ha!
And then please describe what that guitarist is doing at 8:05 minutes, right after he said "...do something extraordinairy, you do this:"!!
Does the person whose butt he gropes there think this is inappropriate on a USO stage? Describe the scene that unfolds! Please at least WATCH the entire scene in context!


And then tell me: What Tweeden did with the guitarist, was that unexpected? Out of line? Did he diapprove?


There are clear, unequivocal answers to these three questions: No! No! The HELL yes!


You talking about the scene with Robin Williams?
They do that here on Dec 16, 2005 at 1:20 min (note what Williams does at 1:24!), they do it here in December 2004 at 38:00 min (note how much of a distance she keeps to John Elway at 19:20, and how chastise the hug with Blake Clark at 28:00), and again here at 10:38. I think they did it every *********** time! It was a regular part of her introducing Williams every single time. Do you think Williams objected but had no power to make her stop? <--- Please answer that straight and honestly!

None of this has anything to do with Tweedens hypocrisy and her sexual assaults. It does double down on the fact that you are happy for women or men to be sexually assaulted as long as they don't complain. I feel sorry for you

It is obvious YOU didn't watch the videos in full context. I hope you did now.

Hands up, I watched and was referring to the videos that were linked in this thread. You seem to have longer ones. I still see Tweeden sexually assaulting the guitarist and Robin Williams.

I quote the guitarist: It's not harrassment if you both enjoy it. He was perfectly explicit that is was NOT harrassment, right there on the USO stage!

Then he's a *********** idiot and anybody agreeing with him is likewise. There is so much wrong with his assertion I don't know where (nor care to) start.

Now go eat dirt.

With that, I'll reiterate that I'm done with you. I'm kicking myself for even going against my prior commitment to not engage any further.

 

[phiwum]

It matters a lot. What is and isn't acceptable is a cultural norm and is dictated by these things. Consensual oral sodomy is against the law in more than a few States but hasn't been prosecuted. Is it wrong?


I don't think I have EVER French kissed a woman after asking 'can I stick my tongue in your mouth?' No, I always just did it. If they reacted negatively, I stopped. Is that assault? I don't think so.

A good point. I never asked permission before kissing a woman either, far as I can recall. Rather, I tried to read her signs and see if the time was acceptable. I can't recall ever being rebuffed, but I am exceptionally sexy.

 

[phiwum]

Were you consenting lovers engaged in mutual exploration, escalating by degrees from talking to touching to kissing to penetration?

Or were you rehearsing a stage play with a professional acting partner, and a script that included a kiss?

What you're actually demonstrating is that Franken's behavior is excusable only if you ignore or change the context entirely. Why don't you try addressing the claims as they are, not as you would like to pretend they are? Franken and Tweeden were not making out. Your scenario is a red herring.

Argumemnon's question was not about activity on the stage, so AC's response needn't be so limited.

 

[Belz...]

Argumemnon's question was not about activity on the stage, so AC's response needn't be so limited.

Huh? Tesla's answer was to my comment specifically about Franken's behaviour. He responded with an irrelevant comment about chasing girls. I assume he meant that his french kisses were not consensual, otherwise it's an even sillier scenario.

 

[plague311]

I quote the guitarist: It's not harrassment if you both enjoy it. He was perfectly explicit that is was NOT harrassment, right there on the USO stage!

If we're using that standard, and Tweeden didn't saying anything for a decade, how was one to know she didn't like it?

That phrase sounds like something Donald Trump would say.

 

[acbytesla]

A good point. I never asked permission before kissing a woman either, far as I can recall. Rather, I tried to read her signs and see if the time was acceptable. I can't recall ever being rebuffed, but I am exceptionally sexy.

I've been rebuffed. But then again, I'm not a 10 in the looks department. I have to rely on my charm. And unfortunately, that hasn't always worked.

This is the grey area you have to navigate in with the relations between men and women. And I don't care how sure some people are about these things, I don't think I've ever been sure what a woman wants. EVER.

I'm a regular reader of women's magazines, women authors, etc. And time and time again, I've read that women want men to take charge, to surprise them. When a man is tentative they see it as a lack of confidence. But they admit that they don't always know what they want.

The FACT is every woman is different. But women play a part and have the responsibility to send clear messages to men as opposed to being quiet and uncomfortable and then down the road blaming a guy for not picking up the signal that they never sent.

 

[bluesjnr]

But women play a part and have the responsibility to send clear messages to men as opposed to being quiet and uncomfortable and then down the road blaming a guy for not picking up the signal that they never sent.

There is much common sense in this paragraph.

 

[phiwum]

Huh? Tesla's answer was to my comment specifically about Franken's behaviour. He responded with an irrelevant comment about chasing girls. I assume he meant that his french kisses were not consensual, otherwise it's an even sillier scenario.

Here's what you asked.

Did you french kiss them without permission? That's not what you're describing here.

I have kissed girls without prior, explicit permission. I did so expecting that they would not balk at it. I reckon that at some time, I was rebuffed, but I don't recall any such occurrences.

Franken kissed a girl without prior, explicit permission. It sounds like she was reluctant to rehearse the kiss at the time, suggesting that he shoulda knowed better.

But kissing a girl without explicit, prior permission is not by itself assault. It is how romances develop, even an hour or so after meeting a girl (who is at that point a nigh stranger). Outside of the university administrations, we don't expect verbal permission for every sexual advance we make. If rebuffed, of course, we stop, but at that point, we didn't commit assault.

There has to be something more to sexual assault than merely kissing a girl without asking permission, or even more than touching a girl's breast, butt or naughty bits without permission. I've done all those things, in appropriate contexts, been rebuffed many times for the escalation of some of those acts, but was not guilty of assault. Normal growed folk do indeed move forward sexually without asking permission and sometimes are told no, at which point such normal folk back off.

I'm willing to accept that Franken's kiss might have been a mild form of assault, but it would be nice to have a clear definition of sexual assault (in moral terms, preferably).