Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

Shalamar said:
Just remember folks, it's only bad if a liberal does it.

This is why our 'conservative' friends here have no issues with Moore or Trump doing these things. It's almost as if they are horribly hyper partisan.
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Well that's one reason why most of the conservatives commenting aren't worth discussing this issue with. They either don't care about the actual issue, or they don't care about it enough to hold anyone in power on their side accountable for it. As long as they can attack a liberal, they just don't care about any other factors.

However, that doesn't mean that the liberals and progressives (and the conservatives who actually have shown to give a damn about this issue) should discuss it. It doesn't mean others can't also be hypocritical on it. It doesn't mean there isn't room for internal discussion on what actions are worthy of what punishment and what factors might aggravate or mitigate the actions. I've been finding that discussion very worth while. The yapping dogs, not so much.
 
tyr_13 said:
Well that's one reason why most of the conservatives commenting aren't worth discussing this issue with. They either don't care about the actual issue, or they don't care about it enough to hold anyone in power on their side accountable for it. As long as they can attack a liberal, they just don't care about any other factors.

However, that doesn't mean that the liberals and progressives (and the conservatives who actually have shown to give a damn about this issue) should discuss it. It doesn't mean others can't also be hypocritical on it. It doesn't mean there isn't room for internal discussion on what actions are worthy of what punishment and what factors might aggravate or mitigate the actions. I've been finding that discussion very worth while. The yapping dogs, not so much.
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which part did you find the most worthwhile? The NSFW pictures or the accuser's history of working at hooters and posing for Playboy.

Curious minds and all...
 
The Big Dog said:
You said you didn't "buy" her story because "Some people lie for attention." Now why would you have given that as a reason if you did not think she was lying?

QED
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Why is anyone buying or not buying the story?

If there is enough evidence she should be believed if not then she should not be.

Does that mean it did or didn't happen? No, but punishing people for crimes we cannot prove goes against everything a free society stands for.

Want this **** to get curbed? Make the claim in an amount of time that evidence isn't long past is use by date. Every person on earth has a video camera on them at all times. It's not going to be that hard.

I know it's not the happiest solution, but it is an actual solution. Personally I'd like to nail these pricks to a wall, but we can't do that if we don't change how we react to it. And this "shoot them all let God sort it out" attitude people want to adopt is already biting folks in the ass.
 
Pterodactyl said:
No. We already know they are hypocrites.
But the standard we have set for these people is "multiple accusers" which, Franken now meets. So, to not be hypocrites ourselves, we have to hold liberal gropers to that standard.
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And if he was still in entertainment he would likely be in trouble. But this does not seem to have been the open secret that he was harassing everyone that has come up so often. Add to that we have not seen exactly what the congressional one is. Clearly for president a dozen accusations and a recorded admission isn't significant.
 
Shalamar said:
Just remember folks, it's only bad if a liberal does it.

This is why our 'conservative' friends here have no issues with Moore or Trump doing these things. It's almost as if they are horribly hyper partisan.
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There is an unfavorable asymmetry here. Some politicians have as their supporters the sort of folk who put "TRUST WOMEN" stickers on their cars, while others have supporters who still blame Eve for the fall of Adam.
 
The Big Dog said:
Sorry, not there. Not every accusation is alike. And this one, I flat out buy.

Three reasons plus a bonus.

1. She is basically a stranger.
2. Her husband was taking the picture and Franken is a total creep. He probably gets off by power trips like this, knowing there was no was no way that the husband would attack a sitting Senator.
3. Franken didn't deny it.
4. He is a serial groper and major creeper.
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Meh ... Have you seen the photo? Franken, the experienced showman, knows the value of a good tight headshot - no space between their heads. She probably was leaning into the frame and Al knew instinctively that her pose wouldn't look good in a photo so he tried to adjust her position as best he could. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. She has a great photo with Al that she can proudly put on her wall.
 
I'm looking forward to the Senate Ethics Committee investigation of Franken. They'll have a great opportunity to show where they believe the limits of improper behavior are and what the appropriate censures and punishments should be.

Since this is a legislative body which has apparently spent an average of about $1,000,000 a year squelching ethics complains against its members by purchasing the silence of the victims I have to think that such a process might be making a number of people nervous.
 
There's another element to all of this, and it's something women frequently refer to and men very seldom. That it's also about power, exercising it over someone and the gratification that gives some people. Example: A supervisor on my job often greets a couple of the young women with hugs and kisses. The two women are hourly employees. Is he just being friendly? There is another woman on the job, thirtyish, very attractive, very bubbly personality. I know the supervisor likes her -- we all do -- but he doesn't greet her with hugs and kisses; she's a unit manager.

A politician gives a supporter a fanny feel. How about a supporter giving a female legislator a fanny feel? We know that won't happen unless...the 'supporter' is a big donor or a higher up in the party. If the supporter is Joe Schmoe, forget it. He's lucky if he doesn't get himself arrested.

That's what is really unpleasant in all of this. It's the little hidden message. You can wrap your arms around an hourly employee but not a manager. Do it to the manager she's liable to make a complaint to HR. Who is an hourly employee going to complain to? On most jobs nobody is going to want to hear about it.
 
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newyorkguy said:
There's another element to all of this, and it's something women frequently refer to and men very seldom. That it's also about power, exercising it over someone and the gratification that gives some people. Example: A supervisor on my job often greets a couple of the young women with hugs and kisses. The two women are hourly employees. Is he just being friendly? There is another woman on the job, thirtyish, very attractive, very bubbly personality. I know the supervisor likes her -- we all do -- but he doesn't greet her with hugs and kisses; she's a unit manager.

A politician gives a supporter a fanny feel. How about a supporter giving a female legislator a fanny feel? We know that won't happen unless...the 'supporter' is a big donor or a higher up in the party. If the supporter is Joe Schmoe, forget it. He's lucky if he doesn't get himself arrested.

That's what is really unpleasant in all of this. It's the little hidden message. You can wrap your arms around an hourly employee but not a manager. Do it to the manager she's liable to make a complaint to HR. Who is an hourly employee going to complain to? On most jobs nobody is going to want to hear about it.
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I'm not 100 percent sure of that. Most of the places I've worked have been almost petrified of potential harassment or hostile workplace law suits. I cant tell you how many of those seminars I've sat through, but it's at least a half a dozen.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm not 100 percent sure of that. Most of the places I've worked have been almost petrified of potential harassment or hostile workplace law suits. I cant tell you how many of those seminars I've sat through, but it's at least a half a dozen.
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TBF, this might be a left coast-right coast thing. Or maybe just an NY thing! Trump's from NY.
 
acbytesla said:
Not buying her story is not the same as accusing someone of lying. I suspect it is possible that she is being less than truthful so I'm not buying as of yet.

Is your world devoid of nuance?
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I think very obviously so.
 
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Here is my conclusion

There is a lack of evidence to make a conclusion in either direction, and I accept that it is something I will likely never know.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Here is my conclusion

There is a lack of evidence to make a conclusion in either direction, and I accept that it is something I will likely never know.
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So far. I reserve the right to change my mind.

I believe Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Donald Trump, Brett Ratner, Louis CK, Bill O'Reilly, Roger Ailes are all guilty of serial sexual harassment and now it looks like Charlie Rose is too.

I am still tenuously supporting Al Franken.
 
acbytesla said:
So far. I reserve the right to change my mind.

I believe Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Donald Trump, Brett Ratner, Louis CK, Bill O'Reilly, Roger Ailes are all guilty of serial sexual harassment and now it looks like Charlie Rose is too.

I am still tenuously supporting Al Franken.
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What evidence do you have on Cosby, Weinstein, Trump, Ratner, CK, O'Reilly, Ailes? Photos? Videos? Or people accusing them? But say you should not believe people saying stuff, because some people like to lie!

Al Franken, in his longer, second statement to Tweeden stressed the importance that women not only deserve a right to speak out, but also to be believed.

The new case has some extra ecidence: Facebook comments made days after the event, in which she already sais that Franken touched her in a gross way.
 
angrysoba said:
This is a well-known figure of speech.




It doesn't piss me off. I just think you are over-reaching. Anyway, if he did kiss with tongues, when she didn't want him to, and if he did grab her breast, when she didn't want him to, then these things satisfy the claim of sexual assault.

None of the other things you have brought up (she's a hypocrite, she hates Al Franken, she waited a long time, it's suspiciously timed etc...etc...) will matter even if you are correct about the other things. And presumably the specific points will be the focus of the ethics committee's investigations. We will just have to wait and see what they say.
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Figure of speech or not, it is hyperbole, as is her description of his "slimy lips". You don't have to like the person acting with you on the stage, but it was a stage, it was a show and acting in the skit was part of the show. Anything beyond that may be an issue but it's clear that fake kissing and joke groping (in this case Tweeden gropes the men on stage, see all the clips) is the job. There is a point where Franken either does or does not cross the line, but don't try to demonize the side of the line that is called acting.

It's dishonest to call that grope joke "breast grabbing". If you don't know the difference, you have a problem.

I did not say "she waited a long time" as a reason to discredit Tweeden so again you are trying to rewrite the script. I said memory can change and mostly my point is perception seems to be different here.


Now we have a person claiming Franken grabbed an ass during a photo. This time Franken says he doesn't believe it happened. There is still a very clear distinction between these serial abusers (we can now add Charlie Rose :eye-poppi) and attempts to conflate accusations against Franken with the others remains a fail.

I don't think there is much more to say here.
 
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Upchurch said:
Huh. I’m starting to see how Franken kissing Tweeden could legitimately be part of a skit. If part of Tweeden’s schtick is basically surprising guys with energetic kisses, her being revolted by Franken, playing the lovable looser, trying to kiss her would be a classic slapstick gag.
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Like I said, it was a USO tour. Sexual innuendo and sex jokes have been part of the USO tours since Bob Hope made them classic. These new clips prove that point even more.


It's fine to complain about Franken's joke grope. It's fine to say, he should have asked Tweeden if she was OK with the skit.

The rest of this is really sad, watching the news media call it groping and an unwanted kiss, and everyone conflating this with the actual serial sexual abusers.
 
Oystein said:
What evidence do you have on Cosby, Weinstein, Trump, Ratner, CK, O'Reilly, Ailes? Photos? Videos? Or people accusing them? But say you should not believe people saying stuff, because some people like to lie!

Al Franken, in his longer, second statement to Tweeden stressed the importance that women not only deserve a right to speak out, but also to be believed.

The new case has some extra ecidence: Facebook comments made days after the event, in which she already sais that Franken touched her in a gross way.
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Aisles, Weinstein, Cosby and O'Reilly have all paid off multiple accusers. CK and Trump has admitted to it. Trump on the Access Hollywood bus and CK issued a statement that all the accusations were true. Ratner has multiple accusers and his statements dont ring true to me...but maybe he didn't.
 
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