Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

[Skeptic Ginger]

Almost certainly some other man was worse with her. But there is a distinct possibility that person is, you know, a nobody, a person with no power, just some overly hands-y Hooters patron who works the graveyard shift at Circle K.

As for her "obsession", I would note that she kept quiet about it for a decade; it was only when this apparent watershed moment with all the other women coming forward about sexual harassment and assault that she told her story. Had she come forward back in 2008, there is a strong possibility that Al Franken would never have become a Senator in the first place.

Did you see the videos upthread of Tweeden groping men on stage without their initial consent? Obviously they didn't care but it does add to my question, why is she so pissed at Franken?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

And before you ask, yes, I think the timing of the Moore allegations is political as well.

Maybe the fact WA Po felt it was story worthy, with Moore moving from the local to the national stage, does add a political aspect to the timing.

Perhaps no one was interested in the story on a local level. There was something that triggered the WA Po reporter to contact the youngest victim, she didn't seek out the press. So Moore's behavior was known about in local circles.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Considering Agatha's warning, I just want my argument to not be distorted and lied about.



It's a waste of time explaining that "deserving" didn't have a single thing to do with the discussion when the confirmation bias is blocking the brains of certain people in this discussion.

It boggles the mind. I say, surely other men were worse, and ask, why is Tweeden so obsessed with Franken?

And they hear, SG's argument is 'she deserved it' and 'SG said she should have expected it'.

Boggles the mind.

Is this really the argument? That surely she'd suffered worse at some point, so it was okay for Franken to do what he did? Frankly, that is as lame as the "she deserved it" argument.

Here, let me give you a clue: despite what she may have or may not have endured in her lifetime, speaking up about a man in power acting wrongly is a little different.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is this really the argument? That surely she'd suffered worse at some point, so it was okay for Franken to do what he did? Frankly, that is as lame as the "she deserved it" argument.

Here, let me give you a clue: despite what she may have or may not have endured in her lifetime, speaking up about a man in power acting wrongly is a little different.

Let me give you a clue: for whatever reason, Tweeden clearly hates Franken. Do you think that affected her perception/memory of the events?

Have other women come forward with sexual assault accusations against Franken showing his pattern of behavior?

Not so far.

So you have a woman who hates Franken perceiving the kiss in the skit as a plot by Franken to get his tongue in her mouth.You have Franken making a sexual joke at Tweeden's expense.

You have Franken apologizing but still saying, 'I don't remember it that way but I'm sorry if I came across that way and I'm sorry for the bad joke.'

It's not just he said, she said, it's she perceived something there is no evidence is a common behavior of Franken's. Why is that? Do people not have false perceptions of reality? Is it not possible she falsely perceived the skit?

 

[Oystein]

Is this really the argument? That surely she'd suffered worse at some point, so it was okay for Franken to do what he did? Frankly, that is as lame as the "she deserved it" argument. ...

No, that is most decidedly and very explicitly, said several times, NOT - I repeat: NOT!! - the argument

Skeptic Ginger NEVER said, NEVER implied "it was okay for Franken"! Not at all!

Can't you folks read and parse??


The complaint is that Tweeden picked on Franken, and Franken alone, even though (SG assumes) Tweeden has surely suffered more and worse absuses. And asks: Why would she?

 

[Minoosh]

For calibration reasons I'm really curious what the generic response. It's kind of like generic ballot polls.

To me there's not really a generic because it depends on whether the 2 people involved are peers. If they're both 12, or whatever age these things happen, it's a normal part of physical exploration (in our culture, and we do have one). If one has power over the other, as in the skit rehearsal, it's a violation, because the consent was for a stage kiss, not an exploration of boundaries.

 

[Elagabalus]

To me there's not really a generic because it depends on whether the 2 people involved are peers. If they're both 12, or whatever age these things happen, it's a normal part of physical exploration (in our culture, and we do have one). If one has power over the other, as in the skit rehearsal, it's a violation, because the consent was for a stage kiss, not an exploration of boundaries.

Or just USO style bawdy repartee. You didn't watch the videos, I take it?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Saying Franken groped her when she was asleep, even adding alleged or Tweeden accuses, when the picture doesn't show groping, it shows making a joke of groping, is the news media allowing a falsehood to perpetuate. And the problem with that is it lessens what actual groping is.

People need to understand the circumstances surrounding the pic that is being shown far and wide:

Hey, thanks for taking a photo of me actually fondling and sexually abusing this woman. Make sure you get everything in focus. I want clear evidence that I am doing bad, even criminal, things.

 

[BobTheCoward]

To me there's not really a generic because it depends on whether the 2 people involved are peers. If they're both 12, or whatever age these things happen, it's a normal part of physical exploration (in our culture, and we do have one). If one has power over the other, as in the skit rehearsal, it's a violation, because the consent was for a stage kiss, not an exploration of boundaries.

For calibration reasons I'm starting simple.

 

[Minoosh]

Or just USO style bawdy repartee. You didn't watch the videos, I take it?

No, I didn't. I probably should. But even within that context, there's context. Maybe USO norms have changed. I really don't know.

ETA: But this wasn't being done onstage for entertainment purposes, either.

ETA2: And "everybody else does it" isn't such a great defense, IMO.

 

[Minoosh]

For calibration reasons I'm starting simple.

An unwanted tongue is worth an immediate and forceful response. Not heavy violence, but it depends on the situation.

 

[angrysoba]

Let me give you a clue: for whatever reason, Tweeden clearly hates Franken. Do you think that affected her perception/memory of the events?

Have other women come forward with sexual assault accusations against Franken showing his pattern of behavior?

Not so far.

So you have a woman who hates Franken perceiving the kiss in the skit as a plot by Franken to get his tongue in her mouth.You have Franken making a sexual joke at Tweeden's expense.

You have Franken apologizing but still saying, 'I don't remember it that way but I'm sorry if I came across that way and I'm sorry for the bad joke.'

It's not just he said, she said, it's she perceived something there is no evidence is a common behavior of Franken's. Why is that? Do people not have false perceptions of reality? Is it not possible she falsely perceived the skit?

She has explained why she hates Franken. It’s no mystery if what she alleges is true. The difference is that you think she is lying and a politically motivated attack dog.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, I didn't. I probably should. But even within that context, there's context. Maybe USO norms have changed. I really don't know.

ETA: But this wasn't being done onstage for entertainment purposes, either.

ETA2: And "everybody else does it" isn't such a great defense, IMO.

The two videos are only a few seconds long each. It's not about "everybody does it". They show Tweeden rubbing on and groping men on stage who appear to have not expected it, ie it was clear there was no permission first.

And while the men in the videos seemed pleasantly surprised, they were none the less groped and rubbed on by Tweeden without initial consent.

 

[angrysoba]

The two videos are only a few seconds long each. It's not about "everybody does it". They show Tweeden rubbing on and groping men on stage who appear to have not expected it, ie it was clear there was no permission first.

And while the men in the videos seemed pleasantly surprised, they were none the less groped and rubbed on by Tweeden without initial consent.

And? Except for some tu quoque fallacy, is there more to this point? Does this mean she can’t complain about groping?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

She has explained why she hates Franken. It’s no mystery if what she alleges is true. The difference is that you think she is lying and a politically motivated attack dog.

No, the difference is no one has corroborated that this was common behavior by Franken.
And just because this was an alleged sexual encounter, do we simply throw out the window the issue of possible false beliefs?
Political doesn't have to contribute, some people just don't like other people for whatever reason.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And? Except for some tu quoque fallacy, is there more to this point? Does this mean she can’t complain about groping?

Oh for pity's sake, how about hypocrisy for starters?

We're back to the same round and round. Without corroborating evidence, I see a person whose dislike for Franken colored her perception of the skit. You see a creep who kissed with his tongue when he shouldn't have.

She claims he wrote it and wanted to practice in order to kiss her. That's a tad egotistical.

She claims he used his tongue, he says he doesn't remember it that way.

This whole accusation is based on Franken's crude joke that he has apologized for, and a he said she said incident that involves a tongue, or not.

What else you got here?

 

[angrysoba]

Oh for pity's sake, how about hypocrisy for starters?

We're back to the same round and round. Without corroborating evidence, I see a person whose dislike for Franken colored her perception of the skit. You see a creep who kissed with his tongue when he shouldn't have.

She claims he wrote it and wanted to practice in order to kiss her. That's a tad egotistical.

She claims he used his tongue, he says he doesn't remember it that way.

This whole accusation is based on Franken's crude joke that he has apologized for, and a he said she said incident that involves a tongue, or not.

What else you got here?

No, she says he stuck her tongue down her throat pretending to rehearse and that he groped her. You have to get the allegations right. He doesn’t specifically deny doing either only that he doesn’t remember the kiss audition the ay she does. You seem to be spinning the story your own way because of your bias.

 

[The Big Dog]

Lie by innuendo.

Is that an argument oystein? I mean you have been mansplaining about how the victim erred because she had the stones to disagree with oystein

Tell us how the victim was wrong. And how everyone who disagrees with you is lying

Disagree with oystein is a lie.

Hee hee!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, she says he stuck her tongue down her throat pretending to rehearse and that he groped her. You have to get the allegations right. He doesn’t specifically deny doing either only that he doesn’t remember the kiss audition the ay she does. You seem to be spinning the story your own way because of your bias.

As was mentioned upthread, unless Franken's tongue rivals Gene Simmons' from Kiss, tongues don't reach down another's throat.


I'm not spinning any story. I'm looking at the wider evidence.

I believe she believes he tried to French kiss her, it was inappropriate at the time and she believes he did it on purpose in order to get a kiss.

It could have just been an innocent skit and the tonguing was questionable.

Either she perceived the kiss as it happened, or she's exaggerating the incident because people do that.

Why is, "she perceived the kiss as it happened" the only possible option here?

There are a number of reasons to believe she misperceived the incident. The biggest reason is why have no other actors reported similar incidents? Franken surely has done a gazillion kissing skits in his comedy career.

At this point, sorry if it pisses you off, but I am not convinced she perceived the incident as it actually occurred.

 

[BobTheCoward]

the kiss as it happened" the only possible option here?

There are a number of reasons to believe she misperceived the incident. The biggest reason is why have no other actors reported similar incidents? Franken surely has done a gazillion kissing skits in his comedy career.

What is this based on? How do single offenders need to be for him being a single offender to be unreasonable?